by Nanette Ashby
In this episode, Nanette Ashby takes you with her to the Prostitution Information Center in Amsterdam. It is located in the heart of the Red light district next to the Oude Kerk or Old Church. I have the pleasure of interviewing Nat Portnoy, a multidisciplinary artist, activist, performer, filmmaker and sex worker. First we dive into the history of the Prostitution Information Center, or PIC. The language and terminology we use, matters. Nat describes the diversity of sex workers, their work and the variety of clients. There is still stigma associated with sex work. We examine which misconceptions and stereotypes are the most damaging and why. Nat explains in detail the legal situation and process of registering as a sex worker in the Netherlands. More generally, Nat illustrates the crucial differences between legalisation and decriminalisation of sex work. The Nordic model is often hailed as a positive solution, but we review the concerning consequences of this idea. How did the pandemic affect the sex industry? We discuss the ongoing project of the Municipality of Amsterdam of closing the windows in the district and instead building a designated high-rise also known as an Erotic centre. This endeavour is contested for many reasons, especially from the perspective of sex workers. Nat describes a third alternative to reimagine the Red Light district. This episode is an illuminating and extensive view behind the windows of Amsterdam’ Red Light District.
Please let us know your thoughts over on our instagram page @raffia_magazine // https://www.instagram.com/raffia_magazine/
If you like this episode please leave us a rating and review on Spotify – It is really appreciated! https://open.spotify.com/show/60ROIuvNmpqYrAYDOVLp8Y
Nat Portnoy’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nataliaportnoy/
Nat Portnoy’s Website: https://natportnoy.my.canva.site/
PIC Amsterdam: https://pic-amsterdam.com/
Mariska Majoor: https://dewallenwinkel.nl/en/bio.html
Vice Magazine: https://www.vice.com/nl
Spinning House imprisonment: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-68435834
International Whores’ Day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whores%27_Day
Ugly Mugs NL: https://www.uglymugs.nl/nl
Reimagining Sex Work project: https://redinsight.org/articles/reimagining-sex-work-on-tour
Episode Transcript:
Nanette Ashby
Welcome to the gender and diversity podcast, Culturally Curious, where arts and culture have never been more titillating, with me, your host, Nanette Ashby. In this episode, I take you with me to the Prostitution Information Center in Amsterdam. It is located in the heart of the Red Light District next to the Oude Kerk or Old Church. I have the pleasure of interviewing Nat Portnoy, a multidisciplinary artist, activist, performer, filmmaker, and sex worker.
First we dive into the history of the Prostitution Information Center or PIC for short. The language and terminology we use matters. Nat describes the diversity of sex workers, their work, and a variety of clients. There is still stigma associated with sex work. We examine which misconceptions and stereotypes are the most damaging and why.
Nat explains in detail the legal situation and process of registering as a sex worker in The Netherlands. Nat illustrates the crucial differences between legalization and decriminalization of sex work. The nordic model is often hailed as a positive but we review the concerning consequences of this idea. How did the pandemic affect the sex industry? We discuss the ongoing project of the municipality of Amsterdam of closing the windows in the district and instead building a designated high rise also known as an Erotic Center. This endeavor is contested for many reasons especially from the perspective of sex workers. Nat describes a third alternative to reimagine the Red Light District. This episode is an illuminating and extensive view behind the windows of Amsterdam’s Red Light District.
All information and links mentioned during this episode, plus a transcript of our conversation are in the show notes over on our website, raffia-magazine.com. Please let us know your thoughts about this episode of Culturally Curious over on our Instagram page, which is @raffia_magazine. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. Without further ado, join us in the Red Light District.
Nat Portnoy
I’m Nat Portnoy. I’m an educator and sex worker from the porn industry. I work at the PIC for one year now, and I educate people about sex work in The Netherlands and the Red Light District and anything else that is related to sex work and often to sexuality that they are interested in.
It’s mostly tourists, but we are also here for sex workers. Every first Monday of the month, we have meetings for sex workers only. I’m usually there for those meetings because this is an important part of the community. And, I’m also an artist. I give consultations, and I do work as an escort occasionally.
Nanette Ashby
Can you tell us a little bit more about what PIC does and how the institution came to be?
Nat Portnoy
PIC was founded by Mariska Majoor in 1994. Mariska was actually a sex worker herself, working in a window, in this very window that we are here now. She started when she was 16 years old until she was 20. And she actually liked her job, but she did notice the stigma in society against sex workers and she decided to do something about it, creating this safe space for sex workers, but also for people who are curious about sex work. Because without answers from sex workers’ perspective, people had different ideas of sex work, often believing in stereotypes and contributing to that stigma. So she relentlessly answered all the questions from journalists, from “civilians”, that’s how we call non sex workers. And all the people who were interested. And she, yeah, she became very important and a beloved community person. She also did something that I find brilliant and practical. You can see a video on YouTube that shows young Mariska explaining to a BBC journalist that she sometimes coaches sex workers, so those who are interested can come in, and she could show them how to sit, how to talk with the client, how to move. I think this is actually really important because sex work is performative, and this kind of tips are very helpful.
Over time, this place transformed. At one point, it was a kind of Red Light Museum of sex work. There was a bed at some point. I wish they kept it. But it just changed depending on the needs of the place. It was also shared with another organization, Proud. And right now we are giving information, so from Wednesday to Saturday, from 12 to 5, we give information to whoever steps in and asks. And after that, at 5, people can book “Walk and Talk”, which is a hybrid lecture/discussion/walk combination where we tell people a bit of history about legislations, law, the structure, and they can ask any question, also politically incorrect. This is their unique opportunity to actually be educated by a sex worker. After half of that lecture, we send them for a walk with our design map. They come back, and they can ask more questions. Usually, based on what they saw, like, why there are no men in the windows… And, then we continue. Yeah. That’s how we roll! We also do a lot of interviews with students, with journalists. We talk here with politicians. We welcome residents who want to ensure the safety, and want to help us also in this district. And, we do collaborations with people, not only students that are related to sex work or Red Light District. We have them in our archive. They are usually in the form of a book. So we have some brilliant works from brilliant people that collaborated with us. Some of it is like comic books with stories from sex workers. There is also a diploma work from an architecture graduate about the past, the present, and potential future of the Red Light District, which is also based on what this person found in our archive. And this is something that I think is amazing because it really gives an opportunity to people to engage with this place and engage with history and spread the word. And the last thing that we do: we take part in many festivals for the District because we have a physical space, which is not that common for organizations. It’s also, organizations and businesses, it’s having a space in the Red Light District…well, it’s expensive, but also, yeah, it’s hard to get one. But we host, like, Red Light Jazz Festival, and this gives opportunity to people, to residents who haven’t heard about us before and to music lovers to actually get familiar with that space, with our mission, and actually a lot of them we are getting curious about sex work in general. And I really like these crossovers because I don’t think this separation is very helpful. I think it’s good to have a community that keeps strong but I think we should interact more with people in general. We participate in many different festivals that are related to the Red Light District and sex work.
Nanette Ashby
That’s also how I found you, because I was very interested in porn film festivals, feminist porn film festivals. There’s a new one here in Amsterdam recently, and also the Queer Red Festival. But before we get started properly, can we talk a little bit about the terms and the shift in terminology? Because for example, this place is called the Prostitution Information Center. However, “sex work” is the preferred newer term.
Nat Portnoy
Of course, nowadays, many institutions related to sex work changed their names to be more up to date and modern and non problematic. Like, we have Amsterdam Center For Sex Workers. This is where sex workers can get tested for free and also receive treatments. And this place used to have “prostitution” in the name, but now that has changed. That makes sense. However, we don’t want to change it because one of the reasons is there are some people that may remember PIC from, like, 20 years ago. And looking at Google Maps or on the Internet, it can be just very confusing. And I think it’s good to remember about those people without making it too difficult for them.
It’s important to acknowledge that this word exists. It’s in the books. It’s not a perfect word, but there was a progression. And if we didn’t have that word, we wouldn’t have the progression. So it’s also about not trying to bury the history, pretend that we never used that word before.
Personally, I’m also against this kind of change. Of course, it depends on the institution organization, but because this was founded by sex workers, and we don’t have to respond to government: we are here for sex workers, that’s the mission.
Nanette Ashby
It’s also acknowledging the different perspectives and viewpoints at the time. What are the preferred terms to use nowadays when interacting with sex workers or when talking about it?
Nat Portnoy
We talk about sex workers, those who provide sexual services. And then if people want to be more specific, those that interact with clients, we use the term “full service” in this country and specifically in the city. If we want to be precise, we talk about “window workers”, so those who provide services from the windows in the Red Light District. We also mention “escorts” for escorting agencies and those who work independently are “independent escorts”.
So there are different terms and “sex workers” is an umbrella term for all the sex service providers. This also includes the online sex workers and those who work in the porn industry. It’s interesting because those are still general terms. Some of it feels like it’s about therapy and coaching. I think it’s really interesting to observe this overlap of different professions and movements, because now we have a “popularity of sexual wellness” movement, a movement that is led by sex therapists, but a lot of the time just people who did like a course and they call themselves sex experts. I don’t mean to sound petty, but I just find it surprising and disappointing that these people didn’t think of, maybe collaborating with sex workers, of including them and actually respecting that there are many, many sex workers who actually are also therapists and they do a lot of coaching and that actually sex work inherently is mostly therapy. There is a lot of emotional labor involved. I’m hoping that sex workers will also take initiative and join the movement. And I believe that there could be cooperation.
So something that is not obvious to many people is that sex work can be many different things. There are, for example, people that provide cuddling services. So that is often in clothes, no penetration, just hugging another person in bed per hour. Some of those people who provide this service don’t call themselves sex workers. Some do. To me, that is a sex work service because it’s about pleasure. So it comes down to how we define sex work, and what it is for us, and what pleasure is. So those can be interesting nuances of definitions. But, yeah, it can be a lot of different things. There are sex workers who, for example, work mostly online, and they’re called “financial dominatrixes”, and this is basically them ordering clients to transfer all their money to the account of sex workers. There is no penetration, again, there is no physical contact often, but that is still sex work. So a lot of people who hear it they are “oh, no, but that is not the thing that I would call sex work”. And then, we have people that create erotica and that is sex work as well. So it can be a lot of different things.
I remember I was very surprised seeing this creator. That was some years ago when actually this was new. So the person was wearing a balaclava, a woman, and she was sitting on balloons and sometimes popping them. And that was the whole thing. And she was actually in clothes. And she had a lot of fans and a lot of people paying her for this. Again, it’s a niche, but, it’s still in this context of sex work. It’s about popular demand, I think, or demand in general. I think the demand expands the borders of what sex work is, basically.
Nanette Ashby
Some people can then decide if they want to call themselves sex workers or not because it’s kind of on the border?
Nat Portnoy
Yes. Sometimes it depends. I think if some people ask, “okay, if somebody has an OnlyFans, like when this person is a sex worker and when not”? And I think the simple proof is that if this person relies on this income. In the end, it’s about if this person is a tourist in a sex world, just experimenting without that income, this person is fine, then I feel like it makes sense that we don’t call this person a sex worker. But it also doesn’t mean that if somebody did it once that they cannot be called sex workers. So it’s also up to this person and individual circumstances.
Nanette Ashby
You mentioned that sex workers can have multiple jobs, and I was wondering the correlation between sex education and sex work. But is that a common part of sex work as well to be educating the clients?
Nat Portnoy
Yes. Especially in countries like this where sex work is legal. So it opens doors to sex workers. It also creates an atmosphere where we have a lot of, well, semi-privileged sex workers who are educated, who made a choice of doing sex work after having some other jobs. So they already have a background, and they are often…they have, like, psychology PhDs. So it’s more likely to have it. But in many other countries, sex workers do educate clients as well. It’s up to their personality and skills. But I noticed there is a shift in this and that a lot of sex workers notice that clients can be educated and there are clients who have curiosity. And we also notice that clients benefit from that. And we benefit from that as well, because clients have some idea about sex work, but they don’t know everything. There are fantasies, and then there’s reality, and there’s a lot of privilege and entitlement. It’s important to show them there are different ways. And I think, for example, articles in, I think it was Vice Magazine, or another one, I remember the headline was like, “what makes a good client?”, and it was from different escorts. And I thought “this is brilliant, this is essentially what we should have more currently”. We are working on a platform for advertising, and I think having this kind of article would be very helpful because there are men who want to know how to be a good client. Of course, not all of them, but we will make them! So, yes, there are sex workers who educate clients if they are keen to be educated. I have a colleague who also has clients that are young and want to learn how to be a better lover, how to do the bedside etiquette properly, what not to do. I think this is actually the longer list. It’s really interesting to see that sex work can be some kind of guidance to men. I have clients that would like to understand how to express themselves. That’s why I really like to connect my experience in the porn industry and especially with creating sex tapes with sexual “enlightenment”. I believe that this kind of material, like creating your sex tape, can be a useful tool in self discovery and also spicing things up because it’s about representation. It’s about how we feel about ourselves. And it’s not just about acting, but we play anyway when we have sex. It’s there is some level of performance, whether it’s sex work or not sex work. I see that they really enjoy it because it’s also a process where they’re not just sitting in front of me and talking to me like I’m a therapist, they get assignments. And for the price, I can review their porn and judging their skills and giving them tips.
So I think it’s really, it can be very creative, and I don’t think sex therapists could do that because also ethics and limitations that are in place for a reason. That’s why I think, together, sex workers and sex therapists could do a lot. But with my way of educating them, I think it’s really amazing to see these people trying something new as well, and also learning about them.
Nanette Ashby
Since you were talking about clients, the stereotype is that it’s mostly male clients.
Nat Portnoy
The majority of clients are male, but this has more to do with the fact that they earn more money, that socially it’s normalized that men need to use that service, and there’s very little shame and stigma on men using the service Of course, with the exception of the Swedish model. But, again, it’s not everywhere like that. There are clients of different genders, of course, but there is, again, stigma, for example, with women paying men for sex. It’s possible. It was possible. Even here in the Red Light District, there were men offering their services to women in the windows, but they didn’t have many clients, and they left eventually.
And this is not because women here don’t want to use the service. Quite the opposite. From my experience and many years of living here, I would say more than in other countries, because women here are often independent and working and don’t have a lot of time to develop romantic relationships. They also cannot rely on the safety provided by a man. They have their needs, and they want someone to fulfill their wishes, not to beg for it and hope. And it makes total sense. And, honestly, it should work, but it didn’t. It only shows us that this shame and this guilting customers has a power. But those women, of course, use the service, and men who are offering the service are mostly just working from the Internet, offering, like, “boyfriend experience” or “sensual massage”. I recently met a male sex worker who offers a lot of BDSM sessions with mindfulness and very therapeutic parts. I found it brilliant, and I’m so happy to hear that there are customers. And he has a lot, and it only proves that it’s just not something that we see. But we have to assume there are a lot. I’m really happy with that.
There is also an agency, for example, in the city alone. It’s a lesbian agency. That’s how people call it. Those are female sex workers for female clients. It’s mostly lesbian couples who wanna book a woman for an anniversary party, which is sweet. And I know a couple of colleagues that work for this agency. From the information that I got, the service is cheaper than it would be for my client in, like, the Red Light District or another agency because the owner of that agency wanted to make the service accessible, acknowledging that women tend to make less money. I think it’s brilliant. The owner is a woman. She’s apparently really nice, really strong, and kind. I know that she also makes sure they are very safe. She often drives them to location, waits for them. They say it’s not a lot of money. It’s a very low fee, but sometimes they feel like clients.
Nanette Ashby
The stereotype is that it’s a certain type of woman, but actually from our conversation already, a lot of different kinds of people are in sex work.
Nat Portnoy
Yes. So there are many different people, of course, when it comes to statistics and visibility of sex workers, especially in the city, especially in the Red Light District. We can see clearly that a lot of them are immigrants. A lot of them are from Eastern Europe. So I think there’s, like, 70% of non Dutch sex workers. And within that 70, the majority is from Eastern Europe. There are some sex workers from Colombia and South America, Latinas. Then, there are some Russian sex workers. I mean, there is an influx of Ukrainian sex workers, but they cannot work officially as sex workers, so not in the windows. A few American sex workers, that’s basically the mix when it comes to nationality. When it comes to other backgrounds, a lot of them are from poor countries, so basic education. And a lot of them already did sex work in the country they are from, so it’s not something they’ve been thrown into. When it comes to sex workers that I know, those educated that do a lot of different things, different jobs at the same time, tend to be from here or from the US because, well, they were offered a better start. Also, a lot of them dab in different areas of sex work. There seems to be a bit of a pattern that sex workers start in the format that has operators. So, like, windows or private houses, like, a gentleman’s club, a strip club, and they build up to become independent escorts. That seemed to be a bit of a pattern, which is good. It’s not easy, though. There are some independent escorts that just start from that, so it’s not all black and white.
But yeah. And many sex workers from my experience are creative people. A lot of them that I know have a background with graphic design and creating media, very helpful. Marketing, a lot of them work in the service industry. It’s interesting to see and surprising, that a lot of them start from one job. They do sex work. If they feel it’s a little bit draining or they need a break, they take a break. They sometimes go back the service industry or another industry, and then they go back to sex work. It’s really good to have this possibility. And I think it’s not very possible with other jobs to just quit when you want without explaining yourself. I would say a lot of people that choose sex work are people, that’s for me a common denominator, that really value freedom and independence and ability to decide without worrying about the bosses, clients, colleagues. So, yeah, people that need to feel free.
Nanette Ashby
Takes a lot of creativity and a lot of thought to put together, for example, a cam show or, obviously pornography is a whole production in itself. It takes a lot of preplanning.
Nat Portnoy
Yes. Sex work, a lot of it is preparation and diplomacy and strategic thinking and ability to negotiate, ability to think in advance about things that can happen, that they can be asked different questions. And I think it’s a very intellectual job, actually. And I also noticed that sex workers have this amazing ability, most of them, to…they know a lot about human nature, and they can recognize certain traits very quickly and deal with, sometimes difficult situations in a very efficient way. They can work under stress. They can separate their personal life, their personal desires from work. And I think this ability is very impressive. A lot of them also enjoy creating the fantasy world where they immerse in with the client, but they are still the boss, which is another ability that I think some people just don’t have to stay in a fantasy world but still navigate it. It’s something that I I find fascinating. And also a lot of them are the kindest people I know.
So another example of a specific agency we have, there are at least four of them in Amsterdam that cater to disabled clients, clients in retirement homes, clients with also mental disabilities, some on the autism spectrum. And sex workers that work for those agencies, are making, again, less money than with the regular service, and they also care about those clients. Some sex workers do it independently. They work with disabled clients independently. Clients often rely on that service, regardless of penetration. There’s usually no penetration. It’s mostly about being seen and being touched and having someone focusing on them.
And I think it really shows us that, unlike what people say, that sex workers, it’s only the money, they have no morals, they would sell their mothers… To be fair, some mothers are horrible. They’re actually very compassionate and kind. They also have to be rough, and they have to be hard with negotiations. It’s a constant battle how to navigate it. It’s very…with sex work, there’s no easy fixed answers or the guidelines how to deal with clients. So we have to be creative with that, and we have to be always in check with our mental health and how much we give, how much we get.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah. I can imagine a lot of time is also spent in negotiating with yourself where your boundaries are and also sticking to them in the moment as well.
Well, I think a very important question is, what are the most damaging misconceptions about sex work?
Nat Portnoy
The popular one is that all sex workers are trafficked. And so this is the popular one. I also call it the boring one because I’m like “No! It’s not all the films.” Another one is the one that I don’t like, I find it very damaging, is that all sex workers have daddy issues, are mentally ill some way or another, have some deficiency of care and childhood. Aren’t we all? So, so it’s, like, “True! But also that’s not the point.” Yeah. Because this really results in treating sex workers like children, kind of, who are not able to make their own decisions. And there’s a lot of patronizing attitude. It also goes into health care often. Some sex workers get therapy, and then many therapists are biased against sex work, claiming that the sex workers’ problems are mostly because of the work. And it’s a tricky one because, of course, the work is intense and can be draining and can be difficult, but that would be with other works as well. Their solution is often to quit sex work and think of the new life, which…it could be the thing that would help, but it shouldn’t be the ready solution. That is something that is also annoying to many sex workers that, you know, they pay for therapy, and they cannot really expect objectivity a lot of the time. So, that misconception that they are troubled and broken and damaged, It shows that people have empathy, but it’s their fantasy of sex workers also needing them. So their help is often conditional. So they help the sex worker, but they want her to quit, to save her… So the saviorism is a really big problem as well. And I think this attitude towards sex workers being unable to make those choices is something that we can see throughout history a lot, with a lot of banning, with a lot of changes that’s supposed to save sex workers. Like, here, in the…I think it was the 16th century, they committed sex workers involuntarily to “spin houses” that were labor houses, prisons. They were just doing free labor all day, and I wonder where is the correction part. So I think, basically, people who did that didn’t care about sex workers. They realized it’s a cheap way to get free labor, but they used the public opinion and feeling about sex workers. And, of course, people were all so good that somebody takes care of those girls. And I think this still exists. There’s still a lot of assumption that sex workers don’t enter this industry with awareness.
Nanette Ashby
Or that it’s not an active choice or that it’s a last resort. I think the most common is that sex workers can’t possibly enjoy their work.
Nat Portnoy
Oh! Oh, that’s also a big one!
Nanette Ashby
That it must be the only option left.
Nat Portnoy
Yes.
Nanette Ashby
And not that people would actively choose that as a career.
Nat Portnoy
This one, I also find annoying because this really goes into how we define pleasure as well and enjoyment. And sorry, but I don’t believe that people working at McDonald’s have orgasms. Like “I’m so fulfilled. I’m like, I’m a complete person doing these burgers. I do something good for the world.” I don’t know. There is also no career really there. But I’m trying to say by this that it doesn’t always have to be a pleasant process to be an okay work. So with sex work, every booking is different. Every client is different. Some days are easier. Some days are harder. Sometimes there’s someone who really goes on our nerves or trying to hurt us, but that happens to other people too in other jobs just in a different context. But I think all of the sex workers that I know, they may not love their customers. They may often complain about sex work, but it’s not like any of them hate sex.
So people who choose that job, if they are not coerced, they definitely have interest in sex, and they enjoy some aspects of it. And I think that’s enough. If it’s one part of it, then it makes sense to me. And, personally, I find sex work very enjoyable. I think it’s important to acknowledge that orgasm doesn’t have to be this defining factor. Although I actually am living proof that sex workers can have a lot of orgasms. And, when I entered the porn industry, I decided that this is gonna be almost like my signature, that I’m gonna have an orgasm every single time and make sure that my co performer also orgasms. Of course, you need to be also realistic, but I realized that with the nature of the shoots that I had that were a lot about authentic chemistry and reactions, no makeup, no surgeries, no acting really, just spending time together and being playful…I realized that, well, this is a perfect circumstance also. It’s not like they are making it hard for me. So I also had performers that I could choose, and we talked about boundaries and preferences for a long time. And then if we spend, like, eight hours naked together and having a good time, why wouldn’t I try to have an orgasm? So like with everything, it’s a matter of training, I would say, and I have a lot of fun. That’s something that I think “wow, amazing that this job lets me”. And, inherently, it’s about the type of work we choose. I think not everyone has that luxury, but, again, it’s really about selection. So I chose this type of work, which means there’s less money in it. I cannot buy a house. But I respect sex workers that do, for example, mainstream porn that is very demanding, and there’s not really much space for self discovery and their own pleasure. Although I know that some of them really enjoy it, so it can be very different.
And when it comes to escorting, I rarely have penetration with clients, but I really enjoy the process of getting to know them and doing something with them that is about creating the intimate space.
Nanette Ashby
You mentioned before that you have walk-ins and tours, and you mentioned that people can come back with questions. I was wondering what’s the most common question from people who don’t know much about the industry.
Nat Portnoy
So burning questions are, well, if women are forced? But another one is that: “how many sex workers are in the Red Light District?”
And then there are many people who are really into statistics, which…okay! Like, numbers numbers, numbers, and prices. A lot of them ask about the prices, the rates, out of curiosity and how much sex workers make in a day, monthly, in a year. And this is a tricky one because it can vary greatly, and it’s not like I’m sitting there in every room with them. So but, of course, there’s some estimation.
And, another question is about STIs. So, like, yeah, health. They ask if, sex workers have to get tested. They almost assume that’s the obligatory part, and they are often surprised when I tell them, “No, actually not, it’s something that is a personal matter for all the sex workers”, and I really like to see them initially surprised and then understanding that, yeah, we cannot treat them like kids. We have to trust them that if they started this work, they also…they care about their own health.
Nanette Ashby
The body is the tool, so. You have to keep the tool in the best shape possible.
Nat Portnoy
Yes! It’s funny. Sometimes a lot of time people will say “But yeah, somebody controls it, right? Like, somebody checks them?” Like, they are not children, again. And, so sometimes I need to control myself to not sound annoyed. But then again, it’s good that they have curiosity. And they also forget that every room and every window has condoms. And condoms are applied with penetration, but also with oral practice. And the people who actually are disliking condoms are not the sex workers. So they’re not in a hurry to jump on a bare penis. No. Not…not at all.
Nanette Ashby
Let’s slide into the legal situation. Because The Netherlands is known for weed and for prostitution, especially the Red Light District, from an international perspective. And as you said, it is legal in The Netherlands, but can you tell us more about the specific legal situation?
Nat Portnoy
There is a basic set of rules from the government that includes sex workers being documented. So every sex worker has to be from the European Union or have a visa. There is also an age requirement of being 21 years old, not 18. They also need to be registered in the city. It has to be…like, in a municipality, and they can do it once they have housing that is long term housing. So they need to have a contract with the landlord stating that, yeah, they’re gonna stay for a while. And I mentioned that because it’s not really something we can take for granted. A lot of landlords just wanna make quick money, and they offer no registration. Because then once somebody’s registered, the landlord is also obliged to…yeah, well, they have some responsibilities then. So that’s nasty. I feel like this should be illegal to not have the registration where you’re paying rent. Yes. So this is very important to have housing, then you are registered in the municipality, and then you can…it’s like citizenship.
And then you have to register at the Chamber of Commerce as an entrepreneur. And this is where you, as a sex worker, need to have prepared a sort of description of your services and think of what kind of clients you will try to reach. And the idea is to also be transparent about it and tell the office worker that you want to do sex work. Depending on the format, it can be defined a bit differently. So working for an agency is a little bit different. Everyone that registers, once they give the description, there are codes applied to it. That’s why they need to be very specific, and it doesn’t have to be one profession. For example, I’m registered as a media producer, coach, educator. It can be a few, and it’s allowed, but they need to know that you’re not just making it up, which is a little tricky.
Once this registration is done, they can…the sex worker can choose the format. For example, if they want to work in the brothel, in the Red Light District, they can find the contact information, and they call the office. If there are available rooms, they have a meeting with the operator. So that’s how we call those landlords. They are not just landlords. They also need to have a license and provide certain things that are necessary to do the sex work there. And this is more informal checking the paperwork, checking the identification. So, for the operator, it’s important to know that the person is of age and is documented. Because if they let this person rent and someone finds out, they can lose the license, and they should lose the license. And this can be easily checked because it’s all transparent.
It’s a pretty smart system if you think about it. But like every system, it has its pros and cons. Because it’s not available to everyone, there is a certain level of privilege that comes with sex work. It’s not available to refugees as far as I know. And as an immigrant myself and a person from a poor country, I find it difficult. It’s a little bit elitist in a way, but it is possible. So that’s good.
Nanette Ashby
From what I understand, that means if you decide to, deregister from the Chamber of Commerce, so there is proof that you, at one point, worked as a sex worker.
Nat Portnoy
As far as I know, from my colleagues especially, because I keep my codes the same. For example, if they work in the windows, the code is there that describes, from what I know, it’s a “personal service” in Dutch. It can also mean “tattoo artist”, but most people assume it’s about sex work. So it’s a little bit exposing. But if somebody stops working in the windows to work in a restaurant or another industry, they just modify that and remove that code for that time. But once they restart working in the windows, they should apply it again. And this can be easily checked because they pay rent for the windows. So if they don’t modify that, they can get in trouble.
Nanette Ashby
The reason I ask is…when I was in Berlin a few weeks ago…I think it was on the International Whores’ Day, and there was a big protest. And one of the things they were working towards was not having to register, for privacy.
Nat Portnoy
Yeah. This actually…this is an interesting point because I don’t mean to say that it’s better, it’s about fixing some problems like coercion or pimping. And it’s also about sex workers being sure and certain. And this long process is also something that can verify that because, if somebody is not sure that they want to have sex with strangers for money, oh, they will fall off that process, because it’s long, it costs money. And I think it’s kind of good to have, in the end, people who are really determined to do it. But at the same time, it makes us vulnerable because we are in the spotlight, And this information can be used against us easily. There is no responsibility taken by any institution if somebody abuses the data about us. And even here, once the person registers at the Chamber of Commerce, their information is available on the Internet.
So while the person in the KVK told me…while I was there and I was complaining about it, and I was wondering if there’s some way to actually avoid it, this person told me “Well, you are making a business now, you need to be transparent with your potential customers.” But it is not like other jobs, and those customers can wish me bad. And they can be from organizations that will try to save me. And them knowing my address and my phone number, it’s not something I feel comfortable with. But then they allow now to register the address with a PO box, and many sex workers use that. So this is something that I think “well, thank God”, but I kind of rebelled against that because I don’t like the fact that, because I’m a woman, I need to take these extra steps and spend more money than, for example, businessmen. So it’s just annoying that, because we are more vulnerable, we need to sort of pay more. And it’s almost like we are punished for those choices. And, I feel like the basic idea from this nation is that “Oh, you can do it, you have a choice, but you have to kind of suffer for it a little.” That’s a dark side of this registration. And of course, there are ways to try and make it safer for us and less in the spotlight. We often register as artists so that helps. I think there is a better system out there, but it needs to be improved.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah, definitely.
Nat Portnoy
So here, the government makes the basic rule with the operators and sex worker registering, and then working with operators, whether it’s a window or private house or agency, and those need to obtain a license. They’re also transparent with the tax office. And it’s also possible to be an independent escort, which means you can do things on your own and not giving the percentage to the agency. It’s kind of the favorite. But it’s difficult because, officially, an escort cannot book a hotel room for a sexual service. Because, officially, those rooms shouldn’t be used as this workplace. And many hotels don’t want to have that kind of reputation. So it’s a little bit of a gray area. I like to compare it with the weed and the coffee shops that…well, they get it from somewhere, but officially, people cannot have more than 3 plants per household. So where is it coming from?
And then, each city, each municipality reserves the right to limit the format of sex work in their area. And what I mean by this is the licenses. So here, there are a lot of licenses available. And in most of the other cities, there are, like, two or three, and often it’s not really possible to get it. So that essentially paralyzes any opportunity to do sex work for the operator.
Nanette Ashby
I just recently realized that the Red Light District is not something specific to Amsterdam, but, actually, a lot of Dutch towns have a designated area. I was listening to an interview by a British sex worker, and in the UK, the problem is that if you are a sex worker, you’re not allowed to work together with a second sex worker in your house because if there are 2 sex workers, it would classify as a brothel.
Nat Portnoy
Yes. That’s the case as well. And, again, because there’s a risk that one sex worker is pimping another one. And it also relates to the law that forbids sex workers receiving clients at home. So that’s the case for most municipalities with, I think, four exceptions. Recently, Utrecht made it possible to receive clients at home without sex workers needing the license. So that’s a success. And it’s a funny surprise because…so it is possible! They did it. Why it’s such a problem? So in Amsterdam, it’s not allowed, which makes it difficult. And, again, for those independent escorts, they have to then rely on clients’ hotel rooms, and there’s some dependency and power positions in this. So I think it’s made in a way to make sure that sex workers are always, to some degree, dependent on someone and they pay for it. So everyone benefits on that.
I wouldn’t really have a problem with that. But in a lot of cases, it’s a lot of money. So the rent in the windows, it’s €200 a night. Escorting agencies take 40%, some even more. They also demand the good ones. I mean “good” as “popular”. Total exclusivity. There are a lot of restrictions that I find should be illegal, but it is legal because that’s their idea. And sales workers signed the contract, or not. Yeah. They have a choice. I mean, those contracts can be also interpreted in different ways. Then in private houses, there’s also a percentage to give and rules and some limitations. So it seems like I cannot have it all, but, like, sometimes you just cannot have it the way you like it.
It doesn’t mean people are forced. It means that they need to comply with the rules that are about benefiting others, not about making it safer for sex workers. So that’s why I find it just really problematic.
And then with being allowed to work from the home, this is officially about tackling the violent clients because this kind of sex work takes place in sort of, it’s invisible. The narrative is that, therefore, the city cannot help because they don’t know what’s happening. And then the police force is usually not prepared to deal with situations like that. Which side they’re gonna take? But I feel like this is all like surface problems, that the real question is why they don’t want sex workers to have that opportunity. And of course, they will never say the real reasons. Officially, it’s about, yeah, their safety and showing them that that’s not the way that they can really endanger themselves. With the law, the legality of sex work, and the fact that it’s still controversial and it’s legalized, but it’s not decriminalized. So it’s still treated as this entity that needs external control from people that are competent. So like politicians that never did sex work because sex work is, again, silly girls, silly girls, boys, and non binary folks. This really doesn’t make the sex work progress as a profession, I think. So with the legality of sex work, the problem also is because it’s this strange entity that politicians control and make decisions about how it should be done, what sex workers should be allowed and not. It’s still controversial as a profession. It’s often used against people, not just sex workers, but for example, if there are landlords that want to raise the rent drastically, and they have someone on the old contract, let’s say it’s a sex worker, once they find out that this is a sex worker, whether the service takes place in the house or not, they get evicted without recommendation. So that’s tricky to find another place. Everyone just accepts this because, yeah, the rule was that you cannot do it. It’s often in a contract from the landlord. So it’s almost as sex work is like a pawn that, yeah, people just use for their own gain.
And then for other people, non sex workers, it can be dangerous. For example, if there’s a couple and a woman is coming and she lives at her partner’s apartment, he can get evicted. If somebody finds out that she’s doing the coming, and he can be easily accused of pimping her. It’s a real threat. I feel like the system is also created to keep a hold on sex workers.
Nanette Ashby
Because you mentioned two terms. You mentioned “decriminalization” and “legalization”. Can you tell us a little bit more about the difference between the two and which word we should be focusing on if we want to support sex workers?
Nat Portnoy
Very simply, “decriminalization” is about removing the criminal impression of sex work and treating it essentially like a job where sex workers have their labor rights, where they have a voice in how they think this should be done. What do they need to do their work properly? And in places where sex work is decriminalized, like New Zealand, it’s the sex workers that have real impact on the shape of sex work and they are in politics and they fight for it and they understand the nuances of sex work. This is very helpful and that’s how it should be. If we treat it like other jobs, we should have those people, also former sex workers, in politics without high brows, without shock. There shouldn’t be a controversy. Having sex work legal here, for example, it means that, as I mentioned, each municipality has a right to restrict, limit, and change the rules surrounding sex work. And I find this very problematic. And also, do things without consequences really, like banning sex work during COVID for over a year, where sex workers became very desperate. And at the same time, if they try to engage in the service, like offering escorting, there were very high fines as far as I know. Somebody mentioned €1,000. So when you don’t have money already, that is a threat. But also there are no other ways because restaurants were closed. Many other places were closed. Not everyone is fluent in Internet selling. Not everyone is prepared. There are no free courses on how to do it. There are no social workers ready to facilitate that, whatever it was. So it really looked like…as if the government would say “Well, you wanted to do that job, that was the risk, deal with it.” And I think that’s, again, not like with other jobs. So this is another serious problem with having sex work legal, which, to most people, it’s misleading, because if I mentioned “oh, it’s better not to have it legal”, they’re like “oh, we thought it’s a good thing”. I’m like “yes, it is, but it’s a different structure”.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah. You mentioned that there’s no labor rights. For example, during COVID, there were specific organizations in Britain that had a fund for sex workers, but that was organized by sex workers for sex workers as an emergency. But, yeah, actually, I didn’t know that it was banned during COVID. I just assumed that lockdown would have then increased the online sex work more than anything.
Nat Portnoy
It did! But I don’t know if you had to, like, walk around the Red Light District…generalizing, I don’t think a lot of these women are fluent in, like, online advertising or creating content. That’s honestly not something that is easy. And not, it’s also not available to everyone for different reasons. They work in the windows for the reason of staying anonymous and not being online. So that’s another thing. And nobody offered them jobs in the meantime because society assumes that they can only do fucking. It was really dramatic. And the way they did it was also problematic because…I understand that, of course, with the banning, a lot of professions were banned also, like massage, although that was lifted much sooner. But the way the government, this nasty propaganda against sex work, driving very close relationship, COVID, sex work…I mean, they should do the same about cuddling and having friends and having a dinner. I mean, of course, sex work is intimate. But as we mentioned, a lot of sex workers do things that…like whipping the clients, there is a distance, at least 50 centimeters. Having this one solution for everyone, assuming that everyone has this fluid exchange and close contact that is just very ignorant as well. They made it so strong that even after they lifted the ban, a lot of clients still were terrified to use the service because they would be opposing authority. And, jeez, Dutch people, well, they have a lot to unpack! That was very hard. A lot of sex workers had to relocate because they couldn’t afford living here anymore. And this was, again, success for the municipality with their project of clearing the District. So if we were a conspiracy theorist, we could assume that this was serving someone’s purpose.
Nanette Ashby
Are there overarching laws from the European Union that each country has to implement, or is it from your experience that every country can make their own version or their own..?
Nat Portnoy
Every country has their own model for sex work and legality of sex work.
Nanette Ashby
One of the models that comes up often in discussions about just decriminalization/legalization is the Nordic model. As you mentioned, it comes from Sweden. Can you explain what that is and what the consequences…that model brings? From what I’ve seen, it’s received quite positively, but, actually, in practice, it doesn’t have the positive effects as advertised.
Nat Portnoy
So the Nordic model includes punishing the client, but not the sex worker. And for some reason, people that are in favor of that model are very proud of themselves because they think “Oh, no, we are not stigmatizing sex workers, we are punishing the people who pay for it.” They are not the bad guys because they are not punishing sex workers, punishing clients that purchase the service, assuming that all of them are inherently violent and criminal, which I have a lot of issues with, knowing that there are all sorts of clients. And also those clients pay for the service means they do the right thing actually, not stealing. So for some reason, it has a lot of support in some countries. I think people are convinced that this is the ultimate solution to discourage sex workers and at the same time without punishing them. But they ignore that sex work will exist, and those sex workers were actually not coerced because clearly they continue. They just…they’re being pushed underground to search for clients that are not scared of being punished, which could mean that they are the most dangerous clients. This just results in desperation and more and more problems. But in statistics, it can be not as visible. So I imagine those people that said these legislations are feeling like they succeeded because again, what’s invisible to them doesn’t bother them.
I think there’s another problem with this that is more psychological and social. I can’t believe I say that, I hate men, but I find it horrible that it paints a picture of men as these predators that are being punished for having desires and paying for the service, regardless of what it is, whether it’s about dominatrix service, about food fetish, about cuddling, about whatever. So it’s very stigmatizing of men and stigmatizing of clients. I hate it. I don’t think they deserve it. And I think it really contributes to division and polarizing in society to perceive men this way.
Nanette Ashby
What surprises me oftentimes in feminist spaces or in feminist narratives is that sex work is still quite a contested topic, that there’s still very different narratives within feminist spaces as well. And there’s one premise that, if patriarchy didn’t exist anymore, sex work wouldn’t be a work anymore because, obviously, then everyone would be equal, and that would make the sex work obsolete. But that kind of negates the fact that pleasure is always gonna be a commodity and something that humans want to experience.
Nat Portnoy
I think this is something that people just like to theorize about these dystopias. And I like it too, because I like storytelling and I create films. So I think it’s interesting, but to make this kind of assumption is a little silly. Also, knowing the history and how long sex work has been around and that it exists in places that it’s not embraced and people are punished, but they still do it. And there’s still demand. Demand will be there. Without patriarchy, of course, it will exist because I think those people forget that clients are not just men. There are women. There are non-binary people that use the service. So it will just expand the variety of clients.
We could imagine it would look different if we don’t live in capitalism. But I also think people would find some ways to exchange. And I have this theory/idea I would like to eventually materialize about sort of a socialist society without currency of money, but just exchanging services. So people agreeing to exchange certain things and estimating themselves. And if they have an agreement, going ahead with it. So, like, a foot fetish session for repairing the lock in a house. I actually did that myself as a bit of experiment, and I enjoyed that. And I thought “we exchange anyway, but right now we have these people like middle men that need to make some money off our transactions with others, how about removing them? How about having just a straightforward transaction?” Because whether we like it or not, sex is actually transactional, it’s not a sex work too, because we always desire something, and it’s not always compatible with what the other person desires. And many people get married to not necessarily get the money, but financial security, safety, status. Those are not money, but it is a currency. So I think many tend to forget about this, that there are desires and that those will stay.
Nanette Ashby
Personally, my biggest concern working as a sex worker would be safety and privacy. So I was wondering, are there laws protecting sex workers? And what is your stance on privacy and safety, especially, you said you worked in the porn industry, and that’s, of course, a little different than working in a window, which is more anonymous. What are your thoughts?
Nat Portnoy
Okay. So when it comes to safety, I actually find sex work safe. Of course, there are situations, very dramatic situations. Again, unpacking it, I come down to conclusion that this is not about sex work, that those things are done by people, men often, violent, and they are violent in other situations too. I’ve seen personally men in my life that were very violent and I was not doing sex work with them. We cannot just dump it on sex work. But of course, we also cannot accept that this violence is there. And I think there’s a lot of initiatives and actions taken to help with that. Like the existence of Ugly Mugs, the organization that helps with screening clients, with reporting the assaults, with alerting sex workers about dangerous clients, is brilliant and it’s really necessary to have that. Another thing is that there are sex workers circles often having some kind of meetings and online groups where they also warn each other about things and people, and they also exchange tips and suggestions how to strengthen this safety. It really comes down to each sex worker getting educated about it, and doing a lot of work themselves.
But again, this is why this work is very special and not everyone could be doing it. And I personally find it surprising that I never experienced any abuse at work. I had some stressful projects, some hectic projects. Sometimes I felt “oh, I should have been more money”, but it meant I should have asked for more money. So it was more related to my own confidence and insecurity. Sometimes I felt that things could be done differently, that I could have more impact in, like, a creative process. But in the majority of the productions, I felt really respected and embraced, and I was put in 4-star hotels, and I could travel the world. On the set, there was a person asking me if I need anything, if I have to talk with them about my co-performer because maybe I feel a little bit stressed to do it with…directly. We also received forms where we would pick out boxes about preferences and boundaries. And also we would talk about those boundaries and preferences on the day of the shoot because maybe something changed. Maybe there’s a period now, so the same things don’t work anymore, which is actually amazing. And maybe I’m stupid, but I was surprised with this. I was like “oh, actually, this is really helpful!”. And then I also thought I should do it with my lovers in real life. But civilians are often too stupid. They think talking about boundaries ruins the fun. So I don’t mean to totally generalize, there are a lot of great people that are not sex workers, but it’s hard to find them. And there’s just really amazing skills of porn performers and just other sex workers that they do understand all that importance of boundaries and preferences and communication. So you don’t have to, like, start from the top. And then when I met with some civilians for like dating experience, I felt like I’m a kindergarten teacher in a way. So it’s not always sexy. Not everyone is into that. So…but yeah, this is just an example and of course, I am aware that it’s special because porn is not the same as full service sex work. This is a very controlled environment. Also, there are people with cameras, but they also can see and you can scream. You can…somebody will help you. But also, it’s not likely because you and your co-performer are on the same level, pretty much with the power dynamic. I think porn can be a very, very safe environment, especially when it’s like ethical porn and feminist porn, which is my sector.
But also, working with clients full service format, I think it’s also safer because the majority of clients are prepared to have rules. They have their rules as well, and they want them to be respected. They want their boundaries to be respected as well. They have preferences. So it’s easier for them to understand that you have your boundaries too. Of course, there’s the negotiation part. But the fact that there is negotiation, it’s already…that matters. And it’s just safer because it usually takes place in, like, hotel rooms. So it’s..there are people around.
Nanette Ashby
The big project, regarding the Red Light District, in the news, is the project from the municipality to move some of the…
Nat Portnoy
All of them!
Nanette Ashby
All of them? Really?
Nat Portnoy
Yeah. So there are mixed informations. But, basically, the idea is to relocate all the sex work businesses into erotic centers, one fixed building in the south area of Amsterdam. Recently, they decided to do it at Europa Boulevard, and they’re supposed to start building this year, and it would take about 4 years to be ready. But as far as I know, they didn’t start yet, so it may take longer. Hopefully not at all. But there are mixed informations. And it seems that there’s a lot said to convince people and to make them stop asking questions. So for a long time, I heard, and I think that is actually true, that it’s about relocation of all the sex work businesses, closing all the windows. I also heard they are planning to get rid of coffee shops as well, sort of as a next stage, and that they want to cater to more classy tourists and promote luxury tourism.
Nanette Ashby
Because I was surprised because I think the original argumentation was the “over-tourism” in the Red Light District. And I never considered that that was necessarily…that tourism could be so bad.
Nat Portnoy
To be overdone.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah. But, I guess we can also see that in Venice.
Nat Portnoy
I like that you mentioned this because I also used this example. So with this official reason being “over-tourism”, which I think it’s…it sounds like a made up word, I mean, made up problem. There are some ideas for solutions that are not including punishing sex workers and banning them from this area, essentially, like reducing the amount of flights daily to Amsterdam. Of course, it’s not my favorite solution, but I think if that’s really what bothers them, then there are some ways to limit that. But I think it’s because that’s not really what they care about. It’s just something that people can relate to, as residents are annoyed by crowds of rowdy tourists that are drunk. Police is annoyed by them as well, and it doesn’t look pretty. Finally, they tend to be very good clients. So it’s also not black and white and not obvious. I also find it surprising because when I walk around the Red Light District in the evenings, I hear different languages, I hear different groups. A lot of the time, Polish people. Bulgaria and Romania, just different countries. It’s just that well, the accent is very specific, and people recognize that. Like, with every conflict, it’s easy to find, like, a common enemy and just dump it on them.
But as I mentioned, they tend to be really good clients. And I have colleagues that work in the windows that say that actually they’re really generous, as opposed to those rich businessmen that are entitled and often rude. And they have moderate expectations, which is good for that kind of service.
Nanette Ashby
So you mentioned that the decision has been made where the erotic center is actually going. But could you tell us more about what the erotic center actually is? There is an example of it in Antwerp, but the thing that surprised me was…there would be a hotel and restaurants and exhibition space, like, cultural parts as well integrated into the building. How would an erotic center even work?
Nat Portnoy
So, yeah, these things are being said, but there is no guarantee. There is no contract about it. I’ve seen some texts about the ideas for an erotic center, but I also wouldn’t really believe that. I’ve seen the mayor also mentioning that there would be painting classes. And we like to joke that “who are they for, sex workers or clients?” And, “the blowjob at 5 and still nature at 6”. Like, what’s actually…what’s the matter with this?
Well, it sounds fancy and interesting in a way. It’s not what’s needed. And I think they made a big mistake with not consulting sex workers in the creation of that project because if they want to spend money on a lot of elements that will not have use, that’s just a waste, that’s their fantasy, not someone’s practical workspace. So it’s…I think they just try to make people feel more friendly about this project. They try to build this impression and the fantasy and make it seem classy and away from stigma. So the public opinion trusts them with this project. So it’s basically creative marketing. But, sex workers never expressed the need of that space in general and for those elements. So it’s just unnecessary, and it’s not something that is useful. Because there are restaurants around here. They already have workspaces.
So it…there was never a demand for that. I think it’s important to understand that this format is very specific.
Architecture plays an important part in why it’s a good deal for sex workers. So there may be drier seasons with the amount of clients coming around with sex workers present in the windows, but they are still there. So that is the ultimate proof that it is good business for them and that we should trust that because it’s their judgment about their business, their work. So that’s the most important part. And with the erotic center, many of the sex workers and activists from this organization, many of us are not against the erotic sender per se as a concept. Why not? Let’s have it in every city. Cool idea! But as an additional choice, not as the only choice to provide the service, like, in the window. So that’s the main problem that they created this concept, but it’s not a choice. They basically force people to use it or to not do sex work in the Red Light District.
Nanette Ashby
There’s only one option.
Nat Portnoy
I don’t think it’s an attractive project. I think, aesthetically and architecture wise, it’s backwards and dated, and it doesn’t have a good appearance. I don’t believe that creating many floors…So for Americans, I noticed, because when I was talking with them, they were less surprised because they have this whole shopping mall culture, I realized, like “oh, it’s so different”. But people here don’t do that. I don’t see many shopping malls, and I don’t think people shop like that, especially in Amsterdam where you have Kalverstraat, which is again very spatial and it gives people the feeling that they are walking around and they are sightseeing and it feels more organic, more casual, same with the Red Light District. So they cannot possibly recreate that. They also cannot recreate many places that make it special around here like sex theater, peep show cabins because it is tacky. And that’s the point. It is campy and unique and a bit weird and a little bit festive. But people should have access to different kinds of entertainment. And we cannot define it as the wrong one. They shouldn’t do it. It’s classist. And I don’t think those places, same way with sex workers, are the problem. There’s no proof and no promise that once they will remove sex work businesses, it’s going to become luxury and quiet.
Nanette Ashby
Honestly, if I talk to international friends of mine: the only reason they know about Amsterdam is the Red Light District or that’s the main reason for coming to Amsterdam. That’s the thing they know. We were talking about the architecture and recreating the experience. The tower is supposed to create, like, a long walk way in circles, but then I don’t understand how that’s feasible then for the sex worker because depending on what floor you’re on, it depends who’s actually gonna bother going to which floor. So it’s very random.
Nat Portnoy
Exactly.
Nanette Ashby
So you can’t actually predict your income or the reliability, and it’s also not the same experience at all.
Nat Portnoy
No. It’s not at all. And it’s, again, problematic because it’s the city that’s gonna control who gets in. And if they wanna cater to rich businessmen, to classy clients, there is a risk that they’re gonna reject guys on benefits, tipsy British boys that don’t look fancy. And that is discriminatory practice. And then a lot of people will not go there to the erotic center because they don’t feel comfortable going to that kind of location, even though there is no judgment, apparently. But they will be in the spotlight because, when they enter this area, it’s not 100% sure that they come here to use the service. Once they come to the windows, it’s so quick that nobody is ever going to point at them, screaming “he’s going to a hooker!” That’s not going to happen. So there’s a certain level of anonymity that is specific to this area. But if people will go there, and I’m sure there will be surveillance, it will be clear that they are going to use the service. It puts them in a spotlight, and many clients don’t feel comfortable with that, and it’s not likely that they will go there.
Nanette Ashby
In the Red Light District, there’s a type of social safety because it is on the street, whereas if it’s in a designated building that’s locked off…I think there were plans for surveillance, but then as you say, that’s a high risk for the client.
Nat Portnoy
With this, I mean, like, the psychological effect of this. And then there’s all this group of people that are just really excited by the idea of having sex with a sex worker in the Red Light District, so that’s not the same at all. And all these people will not use the service then. So we are losing a huge amount of people that, let’s say, they are fetishists about this architecture. We are left with a very tiny group that is not enough for all the sex workers who will still have to pay rent there.
We are told there will be an advanced security system. That’s it, not how it’s gonna work. And I wonder if something happens, if the client becomes violent, how this will be sorted out and which side they’re gonna take, those security guys or whoever it is, AI, I suspect. So here when something happens, many people are alerted. Once the panic button is released, the operator comes down, but also everyone can hear it. The colleagues of sex worker from other rooms hear it, and they can come into the room and help out. But also the sex worker can come to them for safety because the doors are not locked, so clients cannot lock the doors of the room. The sex worker can also run into the street to be with people. There are many ways to deal with the situations because there are many situations, like with sex and emotions and intimacy and violence.
Padding pattern is value-release because sex workers here have opportunity to observe the clients way before the clients approach the window and decide whether those clients act safe or not, if they are maybe really wasted or really high on drugs, or maybe there’s just something about them that doesn’t sit well with a sex worker. And they can also get the attention of clients they are interested in, like, knocking with the nails on the window. They can subtly advertise in a way that’s not nagging, it’s not invasive, it’s not aggressive. They can make informed choices, basically. They don’t advertise online because even if it’s a dry season, they want clients to be acting natural and not prepared and not stalking a certain sex worker.
So there’s a lot of nuances that are surprising, not obvious, but very important in the comfort of sex workers, because that’s what matters. We need to remember that we are talking about business, about work, it has to be practical, it has to be effective. It has to do its purpose. In the erotic center, people will not be able to see sex workers from the outside of the building. And then inside the building, like you mentioned, many floors, probably they will not get to the floor, like a 3rd floor with the sex workers, and they will lose opportunities. And how fair is that? Maybe they will be offered lower rent, but that is not enough. So there’s a lot of unfairness in this and a lot of stupidity, honestly, because it’s just not compatible with this business and the needs of the workers in that business. Catering to rich businessmen, like they are the only group for sex workers in this area and for many others as well. It’s not important if the client is a student or businessman or an older man on benefits or a guy with disability, as long as they have the portion of money for the service, that’s all good for sex workers, which is kind of a beautiful part if you think about it.
And then there are aspects that almost nobody thinks about that are kind of extra, which I think have, like, separate value. So the opportunity for people from around the world to actually see a sex worker in the window when they are not interested in service, but they have preconceptions about sex workers from movies and dramatic articles and assumptions of sex workers being trafficked, on drugs, depressed, crying high. And then they see these women on their phone and flirtatious. And they also can see they could find the brothel on the Internet, they could report if they think something bad is happening, acknowledging that they actually have a real power and impact. I think this is also very helpful with this District that citizens and outsiders can feel that, yeah, they have some power to intervene if that’s what’s needed. So that is another thing that, yeah, it’s very specific to this area. And something that I find, honestly, genius is that this format is very pure and very little cardboard footprint. Because the sex workers are advertising while they are working, they are not spending extra hours online and social media, doing photo shoots that they would have to pay for, describing, and they are not nagging. They’re not lying. They’re not misleading. Client decides for the service based on what he sees. It is what it is. There is no there is no masquerade. So it also allows the client to make that informed choice. The client is sightseeing, so there’s no pressure. It’s a very good atmosphere of shopping. I think with deciding to use the sexual service, it’s very important to feel relaxed, to feel not under pressure, to have the ability to go back, maybe go the next day, to have that service accessible easily, don’t have the pressure that, oh, I’m already here, I had to travel 1 hour, and it’s a chaotic location. It’s loud, it’s a shopping mall. I should decide for the service. That pressure in sex, it’s never good for anyone.
So a lot of people who dislike that, and it’s a lot of people who will not use that service. So that’s another group that goes off the map. The city cannot promise to supply the erotic center with clients, right? So, yeah, there are just so many things against and so many things that are fascinating about this area.
And then we cannot forget about the history, about the heritage. And regardless how people feel about it, that “sex work shouldn’t be something that people are proud of”, it doesn’t matter. That’s a big part of the identity of the city. And they made it legal, they shouldn’t back off. That’s cowardly. That’s a very bad message they would also send to other countries, showing that they’re inconsistent, that they are ashamed of their choices. So, politically, it’s also not great. So I’m surprised they’re going ahead with this because it’s showing them as, yeah, cowardly people.
When you mentioned that “oh, they plan to do half and half”. I actually recently talked with a politician that is supporting the erotic center project. Well, he has to, kind of, you know, working for the people. He mentioned, though, that there will be some windows, at least for some time. So what’s the problem? And let’s say I believe in that, which I don’t because they are not signing any contract. During four years, plenty of things can change. And their ultimate goal is to eventually get rid of all of them. So even if they let some people stay with mercy, “Oh, thank mister”. It’s not okay either. How are they gonna decide which operators deserve to be able to run their businesses and which sex workers deserve to use that space? What, the prettiest? Those that have the most clients? Those who, I don’t know, pay the most. So this creates this very unethical situation and it’s unfair. And again, if it’s just like a few windows in the district, it wouldn’t be attractive to people. And again, it is still about erasing the history.
So I’m not really trusting these promises, same with their promise, kind of, to create a safe space for queer sex workers in the erotic center. See, you made big eyes because some people say that, but, again, no contracts. And I think they are just really fishing for approval because apparently there was a space for gay people, gay sex workers, but they lost it. I don’t really know the details exactly. But I’m surprised because there are gay oriented places around here, like gay bars. So I feel like it’s not like they were banned. But it looks like the mayor sort of promised that they will have a safe space there. And they expressed interest because I think there is some salty feelings about not having it now. And again, it’s not really…they’re welcome. The clients just are cis hetero man. That’s that’s the whole problem, for them. So, again, I feel like the city will say whatever to make people feel that “oh, oh, that’s great, then then it’s changing everything!”
And for all the time, we didn’t hear what they are planning to put instead, how they’re gonna use those properties. They didn’t state that because then they would have to take responsibility. But we can have some assumptions because they’ve been already buying off properties and taking the licenses and blocking the opportunity to do sex work from those buildings. In the last decade, half of the windows were closed. And those buildings, some of them are still empty. So the city is not creating housing options. The city is not creating cultural spaces. The city borders those spaces. They are not transparent about it, but they are also wasteful because there is a housing crisis in Amsterdam, and there are businesses that could benefit. They only recently started allowing people to rent or, like, a Nike store or some tattoo studio. But I can see the businesses don’t last long because the rent is high, and the city is not willing to really make it an attractive offer. They actually make these areas dodgy because when you don’t have active businesses in areas of the city, it gives opportunity for pickpockets, and it’s less safe. They are not very responsible. And a few months ago, there was a group of activists, squatters, Mokum Kraakt, and they actually squatted one of the former brothels that was kept empty in the most popular area. I mean, it used to be the most popular area for sex work. So it happened that I was around just randomly, and when we got inside, it turns out that the space was quite intact, and wasn’t damaged. It could totally serve as shelter for someone, and it was heated.
Nanette Ashby
Interesting.
Nat Portnoy
So for many years, they were heating the space, but that was strictly to prevent from decaying of that room. It was very hot actually. And as we know, gas here is really expensive. So it really annoyed me because that’s a lot of waste just to keep it empty for themselves for the time when they decide, “okay, now we’re gonna make money on it”. So yes, this waste is clearly something that people notice, otherwise, those activists wouldn’t take over. And they actually had a lot of support from the residents because even though the city owns it, they bought it. It’s not that people have no right to express their opinion about it. So with this negligence, we don’t really have high hopes because if they keep buildings empty for 10 years, why should we believe that they suddenly turn most brothels into housing? And when will that happen? So I just wouldn’t trust it even though the politicians said, “oh, of course, we’re gonna do housing”. And it can…but, yeah, so far, I feel like we cannot trust that because there is no proof.
Nanette Ashby
Especially, I think, the statements that none of the rooms would go missing. For every room that’s taken out of the Red Light District, there would be one room in the erotic center.
Nat Portnoy
That’s not possible.
Nanette Ashby
Exactly.
Nat Portnoy
Not possible, and it’s not gonna be the same as here because transgender sex workers areas, there are areas that are with sex workers from certain areas of the world. And it’s more of a preference/communication situation because a lot of brothels are, well, belong to, for example, a Romanian owner, and then it brings Romanian sex workers because they find it easy to communicate, to establish some conditions. The operators are not the bosses, but still, it’s about running the space. And it is a bit of a little community. So if that is gone, it’s it’s a very different situation. And then they cannot talk to their colleagues. They won’t be able to do that in the erotic center. I think this is a very important psychological element that also many people tend to forget about: that right now, they can chat and gossip and complain and just be around one another just like coworkers.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah. There’s community.
Nat Portnoy
Like normal people. And I think this is very, very important for mental health to have that. And also to be able to see the world outside and be able to imagine that “yeah, I can just leave. I feel unwell. Okay. I’m gonna close, give the key, and I’m going home. And it’s close from here, and it’s like I’m done.” And I think this is a really big advantage of working in this area. It’s not the same in the erotic center.
I really wish there was more discussion about other possibilities, because current discourse focuses on keeping it as it is, or, I mean, that’s not really an accepted option, but keeping it as it is, or erasing it. I think there are other options, basically. A third option that would be about, in my idea, about modernizing the Red Light District. So keeping windows, at least a big portion of the windows, and then well, reopening some of the closed brothels, but using a lot of them to provide a different kind of sex service, so services that exist around the world and people pay for them. They often happen online. They happen in studios like in Berlin. There are BDSM Studios. So there are specially designed spaces. So we know, architecture makes a difference, right? The setting makes a difference. So here it would be, in my vision, like BDSM Studios with workshops, how to learn shibari. It could be different times, could be different classes. And in some classes, like the lighter ones, less explicit could be curtains open so the people from outside could see it. It would be for the classes that are just…people feel comfortable with that. There will be a drawing class with a sex worker posing naked and another sex worker artist running it. And people could experience this kind of, I don’t know, thirties England dandy drawing class experience with some fruits. And they could do even role playing that they are dandy artists. I don’t know. For example, and of course, for money. Others could see some of those classes from outside and almost have this, well, voyeuristic experience and think about using this as well. There could be workshops for couples about consent, communication, spicing up their lifestyle, and also night galleries that are with sexual artworks that are only open at night. So when people go around, it’s about giving them something more than bars and windows, but still sexual stuff done by sex workers and former sex workers. Studio, like an office for sex therapists working together with a sex worker. So it’s like therapy. It can be pricey, but it’s all…their sessions wouldn’t be available to see from outside, but the office would be clearly there.
So it’s about the close proximity of all these kinds of places that, as I said, exist around the world that are scattered. And here, this would be the first in the world example of a “sexual well-being center” in the legendary Red Light District. And it would be like a progression of what it is, but giving many people different ways to express themselves and to learn things, but also to enjoy things in a way that is healthy and wholesome. There still would be windows, of course, but I also imagine it would be amazing to have a lot of offices where sex workers could, for free, learn how to operate computers and learn to do online marketing. If they want to quit, just change the profession. So it will be also about promoting personal development if that’s needed. So that would be against this idea that sex are trapped in this, that they have to do sex work. But there will be also classes where sex workers could learn how to do bondage because maybe they are not happy with the penetrative sex anymore, but they don’t know about how to do that dominatrix stuff, and they want to just develop.
So it will be about creating an area that is full of opportunities for everyone that is treating both sex workers and clients like people with potential, not like dumb customers that are supposed to just buy it, come and go. And I think this is actually the only, only way to get rid of the rowdiness and chaos because either way, those drunken tourists will come and feel, “okay, there’s nothing for me here if I want trouble”, or they will try different things because curiosity.
Nanette Ashby
Then it has an impact on their life as well.
Nat Portnoy
And it also gives something to do and spend money on for all these educated couples that…they want to experience something sexual in the Red Light District, but the service in the windows is not for them, really. That’s many people. And it’s actually a wasted opportunity for the city and for the country and for the workers to offer them something. Because, yeah, right now it just doesn’t cater really to them. So creating these business places that people are searching for, that are expected…they are expecting this here. I mean, they sometimes don’t know what exactly they expect, but they often ask me what is out there? And I mention windows, I mention sex theater and they say “oh, oh, that’s it?” Because in the end, it is limited. And I think it’s great that sex workers can operate from here, but it could be much more because we have sex workers doing much more.
Nanette Ashby
I’m imagining it’s like a diverse ecosystem of parts of sex work, all different varieties, and it kind of goes hand in hand because if you go to a nude painting workshop and you’re like “oh, I would like to explore the body more close-up or I would like to perform more, I want to try out costumes, I want to try out role playing…” It gives inspiration for more. So it’s not just you go in for a service and go out, but it provides also opportunities for more services in the future.
Nat Portnoy
Increasing appetite and showing people that there are more things that they can desire.
Nanette Ashby
Exactly. Yeah. It’s very exciting.
Nat Portnoy
Yeah. It would be amazing. I think first, I need to make, like, a film about it or something. So, if you know any, like, I don’t know, millionaire, put me in touch. But, yeah, I know this is actually inspired by my community because I noticed there’s the shift with more and more escorts dabbling in this coaching and sensual exploration, actually doing a lot of educational, but also therapeutic, medical almost, work. So they actually inspired me because I know they exist. They have a lot of clients they struggle with having location. These clients, I think they would pay much more for having that service in this famous district. So everyone will be happy. And the city would be famous for something that is not embarrassing, not about hookers and weed. It would be, it would be revolutionary. Other countries will be jealous, honestly. I believe that. But, yeah, the politicians said “oh, I didn’t hear about it before”. Because in the end, they don’t care about creative solutions. They just use current issues to push for their agenda.
Nanette Ashby
One of the projects that I thought was really interesting when I was looking up the PIC and preparing for the interview was their Reimagining Sex Work project. You made a specific guide for journalists interacting with PIC, and I was wondering if you could tell us about that project because I thought it was really amazing and helpful.
Nat Portnoy
Sure. I really like this project. And it’s impressive that it was exhibited in many different spaces, also with city halls in different cities where, like, the mayors would…important people would make official openings. And basically, politicians had to go through the corridors and look at it. And whether they liked it or not, they should know. And it had very positive responses, and it recognizes important problems of perception of sex workers and journalists, often…well, submitting to this very cheap practice of sensationalizing sex work and portraying it as, again, dramatic and using pictures of someone on the street. Sometimes it’s just…that’s not really how it works. And taking photos of sex workers in a way they wouldn’t feel comfortable with, often making them look bad, like unattractive, because well, that sells better to have the reader being shocked and commenting it and just spoiling the audience, basically. It’s like a vicious cycle. They produce this image because they assume that’s what’s expected. It’s often expected from their bosses to produce this kind of content and then people think that they need this kind of content. So it’s a vicious cycle. But I had experience with journalists, and some of them were bad and I was surprised how much they changed things just before the print. It felt subtle. They were…they had ways to explain it, but in the end, I knew they were exploiting me. So at one point, I started,well, demanding things for interviews. And I had a lot of questions about their outings, about their aligning, about their agenda, and their coworkers, and the message they want to send, the contents of the article. Because, yeah, it can be…people can be easily manipulated with this stuff. I also realized: it’s labor. If I give a short note interview, it’s different, but I also had people doing reportages with, like, five big pages and we spent six hours, like, altogether. And they would say “you know, it’s my work and…but I cannot pay you because then it wouldn’t be objective.” And I often hear that there are also…I heard sex workers saying “Yeah, no, you cannot demand money for that”. I’m like “try me”. I actually decided that I want something. It doesn’t always have to be the money. I would ask them to, look, “if you can get me theater tickets, I mean, you’re a journalist, you have stuff, or take me to a dinner”, just like favors. I’m very open minded. As I told you, currency can be different. It’s…sometimes it’s just about being appreciated and not fucked over, basically, because they are being paid for it. But we are giving them something that it’s not easily accessible for them. And I don’t mean to build, like, a hierarchy. There are better subjects and worse, but interviewing a farmer or a construction worker or a single mom is not the same as interviewing sex workers about details of their work, very intimate details. So they need to value that. But that’s a side note. I think this project really showed to people that it matters to sex workers how they are portrayed, that they have identity, that they have preferences, and that they’re very aware of the impact of how they are portrayed on people.
It’s a big shift, and I saw many people interested in learning. It’s a huge step. The photos are also really cool and diverse. They show different sectors of sex work. It’s a great project. There’s a link on our website to that project. And we have some of those additions. How do you call it? Prints. Yes. The brochures we have here for journalists, so people can also come here and have one. Then journalists have no excuse. They cannot say they didn’t know.
Nanette Ashby
Okay. Last question. It was a very interesting interview, and we’ve covered so many things. What can listeners do to support sex workers in general and, more specifically, here in The Netherlands?
Nat Portnoy
Donate. But that’s, of course, not the only thing. And I think what we need the most is people fighting with the stigma against sex work and not pushing it on sex workers only. And when people often ask me “how can I fight with the stigma, actually, how do I do it?” I tell them “actually, this is the most difficult because it doesn’t really require money: it’s about being brave and nonconformist and not always expecting validation from your surrounding, it’s about challenging people’s perception about sex work, it’s about watching their own patterns and bias and unpacking things and confronting things, often uncomfortable, it’s about language.” Wittgenstein said “the borders of my language are borders of my world”. And I think this is very true with sex work and perception of sex work. The way we use slurs describing sex workers for many different situations, also not related to sex work. But also calling sex workers “whore”. It’s problematic, of course, and I think it contributes…I mean, I don’t think, I know that for sure: it contributes to the way others perceive sex workers. How sex work is being demonized and stigmatized and perceived as something that is the lowest. That if somebody’s called that name, they don’t deserve the respect because, the language. If we say that, we stay in that loop. And it’s not easy to unlearn that, but it is possible. Like with everything, it’s a learning process, but even more important, I mean…same important, is…but hardest, harder to do is to call out our surroundings, to correct our peers, our parents, and to explain why. Not to just, like, shush them, that’s…nobody likes that. But to have patience and to educate them why this is a problem, be able to show them from perspective, what does it do, that this is a long term damage that is hurting everyone. And that we can totally swear, it’s not about policing someone completely, but about changing these habits that are just exposing how stigma is deeply rooted in our minds. And if we’re not gonna try and change that, it’s just it’s not gonna change. And then there is room for sex education for education about sex work, but we need to start from the basics. I would recommend that.
Nanette Ashby
That’s amazing! Yeah. Because with everything, it starts with the individual and only when you’ve done the work and read some amazing books and listen to podcasts like this and listen to own voices.Yes. Very important.
Nat Portnoy
Yes. Very important.
Nanette Ashby
Then you can start educating the people around you or you can start having these conversations feeling comfortable that at least you know what you’re talking about and be firm in your perspective and stance. Thank you so so much for taking the time. This was amazing, and we will leave all the links to PIC and those sources and resources in the show notes so you can find them again. Thank you so so much.
Nat Portnoy
Thank you. That was a pleasure.
Nanette Ashby
You can find more information and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at raffia-magazine.com and please let us know what you think over on Instagram @raffia_magazine. If you like this podcast, why don’t you leave us a lovely review on Spotify? Thanks so much for listening and all your support for the podcast. I’ll catch you in the next episode. Bye!
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