by Nanette Ashby
In this episode, Nanette Ashby is joined by Dr. Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven. From 2020 to 2023, she was the Chief Diversity Officer at Radboud University and Program Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. We discuss the ins and outs of what this job entails. Including meeting with students or staff members to listen to their demands, complaints or issues and the process of finding ways to implement long lasting improvements. Rona’s career has taken her around the world. How does one adapt the work to the culture one is in? Rona and I delve into the history of DEI departments in various organizations. We stress the importance of the intersectional work that she does as well as the changes she is able to implement, regardless of the field. Together, we establish the vital need to stay curious and to keep questioning everything in the search for further deconstruction of social and societal norms. Generally this episode is about how to be a champion for human rights and social justice.
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Mentioned during the episode:
DEI at Radboud: https://www.ru.nl/en/about-us/mission-and-strategy/key-strategic-themes/diversity-equity-and-inclusion
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven: https://www.ru.nl/en/about-us/news/rona-jualla-van-oudenhoven-appointed-director-equity-diversity-and-inclusion-at-trent-university
DEI ambassadorship: https://www.ru.nl/en/services/associations-networks-initiatives-and-participation/become-a-dei-ambassador
Dito Young LGBT+ Nijmegen: https://ditonijmegen.nl/
Episode Transcript:
Nanette Ashby
Welcome to the gender and diversity podcast Culturally Curious, where arts and culture have never been more titillating with me, your host, Nanette Ashby.
In this episode, I’m joined by dr. Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven. From 2020 to 2023, she was the Chief Diversity Officer at Radboud University and Program Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. We discuss the ins and outs of what this job entails. Including meeting with students or staff members to listen to their demands, complaints or issues and the process of finding ways to implement long lasting improvements. Rona’s career has taken her around the world. How does one adapt the work to the culture one is in? Rona and I delve into the history of DEI departments in various organizations. We stress the importance of the intersectional work that she does as well as the changes she is able to implement, regardless of the field. Together, we establish the vital need to stay curious and to keep questioning everything in the search for further deconstruction of social and societal norms. Generally this episode is about how to be a champion for human rights and social justice.
A transcript of our conversation with all information and links mentioned during the interview is available in the show notes over on our website at raffia dash magazine dot com. We would love to hear your thoughts about this episode of Culturally Curious over on our Instagram page, which is @raffia underscore magazine. Also, don’t forget to leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is much appreciated! Now let’s find out how we all can be champions for human rights and social justice.
Hi, thank you so much for taking the time. Could you introduce yourself?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
So I’m Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven. I’m the Chief Diversity Officer at Radboud University, Program Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
Nanette Ashby
Wow, that’s a long job title! What does that job entail?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
My job entails leading and facilitating the university’s path towards equity and inclusion. It translates into advocating for diverse groups in society, often marginalized. It entails being a champion for social justice in that sense. And at Radboud, I’m a bit of a connector of dots, so to speak. Identifying those pockets of DEI excellence and bringing them together and being a catalyst that ignites DEI sparks where they are needed.
Nanette Ashby
That sounds very interesting. But in day-to-day life, what does that actually translate to as a job?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Okay, wow. Now, this varies from day to day. So no single day is the same, but there are common threads, of course. So it may begin with meeting students who have sent an email regarding a situation that they’re encountering and would like to talk about, or a complaint that they would like to see me escalate. There are meetings with colleagues, of course, or maybe planning and hosting activities. Like this week, we had our Diversity Day, which involved a lot of collaboration with partners and faculties.
For example, the social science faculty or Nijmegen School of Management, Department of Psychology, business departments, collaborating with Radboud Reflex. Sometimes it involves meeting with the members of the executive board, which I do monthly and on an individual basis. Having discussions with student organizations and affinity groups. Meeting with community partners, because I fully believe that a university is a hub and does not stand in a silo. Sometimes sitting and advising on committees or working groups, whether it’s LGBTQI working groups or different mental health committees. Having meetings, over walks or over a coffee, for example. Sometimes many late evening community events as well, because I like to be part of that community hub. I’m networking at conferences, sometimes right here in Nijmegen, sometimes nationally in different cities or sometimes even abroad.
Nanette Ashby
Oh, nice! Okay. I saw that you joined Radboud during the pandemic. Is that changing your day to day?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
It is actually, because now naturally I have more face-to-face meetings. But honestly, even during the pandemic, I thought we were able to network quite well online. So I think that’s one advantage of technology: that it afforded us that, and we did not, we were not in total isolation.
Nanette Ashby
And what made you interested generally in this field of research? Because I know you’ve done a lot of work in the social sciences and in a lot of different countries, but what started your interest?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, for me, I think I always grew up realizing that the world was not fair. So this sparked something in me to change the narrative. So I remember, for example, my master’s thesis was on corporate punishment. Because as a young kid growing up, I was close to other young persons who were exposed to that form of violence. So I think I recognized my privilege in some areas and felt a responsibility to use my abilities to assist others.
And then I also have been in very disadvantaged situations by virtue of what I embody, you know, in situations where I’ve experienced violence and oppression and racism and hate. So I relate to much of the work and the research that I do and advocacy from that standpoint of lived experience as well.
Nanette Ashby
So what kind of roles have you had before coming to Radboud?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Well, I’ve worked in international development for almost 10 years. And much of that was like in different countries, but always focused on working with marginalized groups. So basically, I sort of did action research and translated a lot of my theory into practice in different countries, whether it was in Siberia, for example, or in Latin America, like in Nicaragua, working with street youth. And also then I took on a more formalized role as being a director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in three large institutions before here. So it was a natural fit when I decided to make the move to the Netherlands, that I look for a similar position.
Nanette Ashby
Okay. I know that every year, the diversity department has a focus or a goal for the year. So I was wondering what the focus for this year is?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, well, it’s interesting. So when I came here in September of 2020, there was not a set diversity department, so to speak. So the first thing that we did was establish a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion office, which I headed. And then we launched our Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Plan 2021 to 2025. So that in essence, will guide us on a nice path to achieving some of the goals that we would like to see achieved.
Now, this past two years has seen a great focus on DEI and very much human resources-related matters: those of recruitment and selection, anti-bias training, and also a huge focus on platforming student voices, because I found that was very much needed. Now we have launched some modules aimed at tackling harassment and discrimination, looking at addressing systemic and cultural change in mindsets and structures. And we’ve created, along with Radboud UMC, our DEI anti-bias theater, which we will continue to roll out. And we are creating a ripple effect with our students and, as you know being yourself a DEI student ambassador. And thank you for that. I’m very proud of the group. And we have a strong focus on social safety and inclusion in mental health.
For the next academic year, I really plan to work more with academic affairs and bridge the gap between research and practice. I want to work on assisting faculties, for example, with setting up their DEI committees and see theory manifested in sound policies for change, like have our inclusive toilets policy enacted, our inclusive language policy, just as we had our anti-racism manifesto with our clear solidarity statement, etc. So I would like to see more of that happening. So definitely promoting greater solidarity and allyship, so that we become a community of DEI practitioners who are very visible on campus.
Nanette Ashby
Okay, because before the pandemic, I don’t remember there being a diversity office, because I know… I study arts and culture; we are very diverse, and we were discussing a lot of diversity and inclusion issues, and didn’t have a place to go to ask for help. And for example, one of the things that I remember very strongly is the generation before me had to fight very hard for trigger warnings for movies that we had to watch or readings we had to do. And they were very much needed. But we really had to fight for that to be acknowledged by the professors a lot of the time. So it’s really nice to know that there’s now a place we can go to with concerns or questions, because there wasn’t anything really.
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, exactly that. And I think it’s really nice that the university did that. Because I have to say, there were a lot of things happening, like a lot of pockets of excellence around DEI work. But like you said, they were very disconnected. And students or staff did not know where or whom to turn. So I think in that manner, my presence was like really a connector. And saying “okay, yeah, now we have a diversity office here where we can go”. And I remember that taking on the mantle of safe spaces and the conversations around trigger warnings. And we still do have opposition around that, because some persons see it as coddling, diminishing resilience in terms of “that’s what we’re supposed to promote with students”, but really not realizing that it’s really a simple… it’s something that many professors have done without calling it trigger warnings. And those who have not to look at and say, “hey, why not?” Because we are putting our students or staff in certain situations when we bring up a certain conversation. And how do we just…maybe just a basic form of respect or courtesy to just give a flag that, “chances are, this conversation may not be too okay with you, please feel free to leave or just access some resources at the end of the class”. And just so that you just walk into the space with that sense of compassion, you know, and it really changes the dynamic of everything.
Nanette Ashby
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Because it took me personally quite a while to find information I needed in regards to mental health or disability support.
Also, with the trigger warnings, when a new policy or new guidance is put in place, how do you make sure that the students are informed of it? Because a lot of times, it might be known through staff because they’re more connected to you and the department. What measures do you take that it gets to the students?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, I think we still need to do a lot more work here. And I think this is where our communications department comes in. I’m happy to say that they’re working very well with us now, because we’re seeing exactly that: so there is really a strong need for promotion and for campaigning and for getting our message out there. So when a new policy is in place, let’s say example, DEI policy or plan, and we seek the support of communications team in this manner to spread the word on social media and our staff and students newsletter, for example, we host workshops and focus groups to discuss with students what’s working well, what’s not working well, and what we can do better. So we don’t wait until the end, a very long time before we evaluate. For example, any intervention, we believe that evaluation begins when a project begins and not at the end. And in this way, we can make the tweaks as we need, as we go along. I’m happy to say that we have our communications team behind us now, because when we started off, it was a bit of a challenge to say, “hey, DEI is a new voice on campus, and we really need to push our initiatives”. And sometimes it took a lot of being in everyone’s faces, so to speak. But you know, you have to do it. It’s like, you know, they say with everything in real estate is “location, location, location”. It’s like everything, sometimes you have to admit it, it’s “marketing, marketing, and marketing”, you know, you need to get your message out there.
Nanette Ashby
Definitely. I remember hearing about the DEI ambassadorship through a fellow student who had done it a year previously. Other than that, I don’t think I would have found it on my own.
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
And you hear a lot of students who say that “wow, I did not know that happened on campus”, “I did not know you’re having diversity day”. So these kinds of things. And I think we really need to get better at that.
We also have formed our DEI website, which is accessible. I think as we are forming our new website, we’re going to tweak the search words, for example, the keywords. So we are talking to the communications team about that as well, so that it’s more sensitive in terms of you don’t have to be very targeted with your search, so that a student can just easily punch one word, and then it gives a link to a lot of the things that’s happening.
Nanette Ashby
We talked about it already, there are challenges when doing this kind of work, what kind of problems have you run into as part of your work here?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
No, this job is very rewarding, I must say. So indeed, it does not come without its challenges or problems. So some of these include, for example, getting buy-in, inserting projects and programs, getting the support and participation is key to success. So getting everyone to own a DEI project and see their part in it is key.
So it’s really nice, actually, that our motto is “you have a part to play”, because I think that’s a really nice call to action, and it fits nicely with DEI work. So this takes a lot of work and effort and energy, of course, to constantly rebutt dissenting opinions and try to present convincing arguments for things which really, oftentimes, you think are so simple, and rest on the basic premise of human rights and equity, to think that it takes so much strength to have to present arguments for these. So at times, you think maybe it’s best to be in a space just with like-minded persons where the majority think like you rather than go against. So that’s sometimes a major challenge.
Another one is, how do we get persons on board who have fears that you respect, but you understand them as irrational? Because the research is there that says, indeed, this is not the case. A simple example is the fear of losing the Dutch language if we open ourselves up to being a little more bilingual. You know, cognitive research tells us that that in fact stimulates your brain if you engage in bilingualism. But we do understand, naturally, there is that inner fear in terms of holding on to one’s identity and one’s culture. So I think that’s one that we do respect, and we need to embrace and approach it in such a way that we don’t. We don’t want to implement something new at the expense of something that’s rich and that’s already existing, like the Dutch culture and the Dutch language. So how do we do that in partnership, you know?
So, for example, the opposition around having gender neutral toilets or a simple thing like not being flexible to allow some sessions to be virtual. Because research points to the fact that students learn differently and staff function differently. So productivity actually increased for many groups who are more introverted or who learned best through incorporating different technological approaches, for example. So I think we should go beyond our notion of norm that defines success. For example, the typical norm is class participation equals the social butterfly in every club, which is a typical depiction of success. So how do we work together on changing that narrative?
Nanette Ashby
I think I was going to ask this later, but since you brought it up, online learning access. I’ve noticed, especially in my faculty and also in universities across the country as well, that there’s a push to take away the virtual options of joining the lectures again. From my perspective, I’m coming from a place of…people with disabilities were able to join in lectures and were able to have more access from home. Thus, depending on the disability, not putting themselves in as much pain or risk. And I was wondering what your thoughts were with this push to go back to how it was before the pandemic and taking away those options again.
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, no, I really like that question because it actually speaks to what we mean when we talk about “actionizing a policy”. And does it only happen intermittently or is it something that we live by, you know, and that we engage in all the time? And I think that’s a good question because I am a firm believer in flex time for students and staff and the research speaks. And yes, there was a spike in depression as a result of isolation and lack of connection, and the research also points to that. But there were also a lot of enabling aspects that technology afforded us. Why is it that as a society, we’re always so binary in our choices? It’s great to hear the buzz of student voices and to meet in person, etc, but it is also great not to, at times, you know, especially now that this process can be consciously mapped in a more strategic manner. We can decide when we want to be on campus and when not. So I’m full support with you on that. And I think we should not go back to prior to the lessons learned. I think COVID taught us a lot of lessons. It showed us some of the disparities in terms of the way COVID affected certain groups in society. So that’s part of our behavior from the lessons learned.
Nanette Ashby
There are so many minorities and so many issues. Is there ever a point where you, as a department have to say, “okay, we don’t have unlimited amounts of time and resources, we need to focus on one minority at the moment, and then we’ll double back to another one”? Does that come into your work, making these decisions?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, and that’s an interesting question as well, because that came up a lot when I was drafting the Diversity Equity, and Inclusion Plan.
What is going to be our focus? And if we focus on LGBTQI, for example, or anti-racism, are we not focusing on mental health? And for me, I think I will, and I will continue to say that, indeed, we are prioritizing all minorities, and all issues of inclusion. Sometimes I don’t want to hear that we need to identify one or two and move in a very linear fashion. Because again, you know, injustice does not work that way. It doesn’t decide that this year, in 2022, “I will cause harm to LGBTQI persons”, you know, and, “in 2023, I will wreak havoc on persons who are differently abled”. So why then should our priorities in terms of intervention be in that fashion? And that’s kind of my take: That we are a top class university with sufficient human resource and financial capital. And we have a board that’s invested, we can achieve many of the goals that we want to achieve, recognizing that the DEI is actually about placing priority on all marginalized groups, and strengthening the focus of providing resources to promote equity and inclusion.
So indeed, our priorities include addressing issues of neurodiversity, racism, ageism, sexism, Eurocentrism, among others. So yeah, I am very on the fence about identifying one. And I’ve seen in the past, in terms of actionizing some of the initiatives, that we can do as many as we want to.
Nanette Ashby
And oftentimes, they’re interlinked anyway.
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Definitely, you know, you bring up the notion of intersectionality. And sometimes it’s like, we’re definitely intersectional in terms of the identities that we carry, in terms of the issues that we have to combat on a daily basis, you know. I don’t put away getting racist comments on the streets, or they’re not just selectively around gender, for example, you know, or abilities, so they are often intertwined.
Nanette Ashby
The next question I’m personally very interested in, because I also…part of my family is Canadian and I recently was in Canada, I’m from Germany so I also moved to the Netherlands, getting used to new cultures. Since you have worked in so many different countries and cultures, including Canada, and at the moment, the Netherlands… The Dutch are known to be very direct, whereas Canadians are known to be very kind and communicate in a more indirect manner. So I was wondering how these different styles of communication and also how people relate to each other impacts your work and approach? Is it beneficial to tailor your way of interacting to the culture you’re working in?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, that’s such a nice question. And the nail on the head when you said “I want to like Canadians” on your right, sometimes they are kind to a fault. Canadians are polite, I think to a fault, and the Dutch are blunt like bricks. And yes, we do need to tailor how we function to suit the context we are in. Because I think if it’s one thing that diversity and inclusion work teaches you, it’s that nothing is devoid of the context, and the context of the situation. So this work that we do, it’s not formulaic. You cannot go from one institution to the next and say, “okay, I’m a DEI expert in this organization, and I bring with me everything”. Bring some level of expertise and knowledge, but it has to be tweaked. You know, personally, I love the bluntness of the Dutch over what I think sometimes is the polite duplicity of some Canadians, you know, and because this allows me to know where I fit, you know, and how I need to move and whom I need to reach out to and have the conversations with and address oppositions, for example.
So while we value being proper, and following certain rules of behavior norms, inclusion really is about authenticity. So I would take that any day over polite hypocrisy. Not that I’m saying Canadians are hypocrites. I love my Canadian peeps. I am still Trini to the bone, which means we basically wear our identity on our sleeves, and you cannot get more transparent than an island person. So for me, I think really, it’s about navigating the context in which you are in, and just being as true to yourself and speaking your truth, as you can.
Nanette Ashby
There’s a lot of advertisement to international students to say “we have mental health support, we have disability support, we’re very inclusive”. So the marketing done from the university to international students is very good, and very enticing. But what happens often is, especially with international students, when they actually arrive and then ask for that support, it’s very hard to receive it, or the support doesn’t actually exist in the extent as it was mentioned. And especially for international students who depend on the guidance of the university, they run into a lot of issues because of health insurance and other things, they don’t have other options. And I was wondering if that aspect has come to your attention yet?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
No, actually, you’d be surprised because this continues to come to my attention since I started. And in fact, it does fall under my purview a bit because once you are being treated differently, for whatever reason, I think staff and students reach out. So I have had a lot of international students coming to me with some of those cases. You’re right, I think we need to do better to bridge the gap. Where are we in terms of compliance with what we are saying and what we are giving? And we are really partnering with our international community more, and Student Life, for example, to say, hey, this is, we really need to do better.
I think that’s where my office acts as a pulse. So I give that feedback, because I can say, I can safely say when I have meetings that “hey, I’m getting a lot of emails from international students, why aren’t we doing such and such?” And then, because sometimes it’s also a case that it’s not known. So then by virtue of this office existing, having someone to have that messaging through, then I can send that message forward to Student Life or to International and say, hey, this is something that we can look at. And then they can take it up. So really, it’s about: how do we create that channel so that those complaints can come forward? Complaints aren’t necessarily a bad thing. I actually think they are a good thing, because they allow us the tools to do better, to navigate, to know our areas of weakness, you know. So I really like that in that sense.
So for example, we started a DEI Accessibility and Disabilities Committee, and we’re working together to create change. And those things started simply by a student coming forward and saying “can we do better in this area?” And then us saying “yeah, let’s do such and such”. So the fact that they are still coming means that we do need to increase and adapt our efforts, work more with Student Life, that’s high on our priority for 2022-2023, and we do have the full support of our head of Student Life on this. We actually now have a full-time DEI student coordinator.
Nanette Ashby
You’re getting a lot of feedback from students, and I was just wondering if you could tell specifically how we can reach your department.
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, so one of the things with our department: we’re trying to embed ourselves strategically across the university. So although I have an office, and we have staff who are, for example, situated in the Human Resource Department, situated in Student Life. So you can find us on our website, just “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion”. Also, you can just search by name, so ronajuallavanoudenhoven@ru.nl or at inclusion@ru.nl.
I’m also trying to maybe just have myself available every Tuesday morning, for example, so that you can have a walk-in without any appointment. But again, it’s about marketing that and having that communicated on our website so students know it. So I may be sitting here every Tuesday, but if we don’t tell that to the student body or the staff body, then nobody knows about it.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah, that’s true. We already mentioned the DEI student ambassadorship, but I was wondering how can students get involved in making the campus more inclusive, be it through that ambassadorship or other lines?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
Yeah, well, I think over the past two years, I never had a point where I did not have an interaction with one or more students, and that’s because they just came forward. But I think we also need to empower those who do not take the initiative to say “well, I can come forward”, you know, because again, if we’re talking about breaking the norm, the ones who are maybe more bold or brave have come forward, and then we’ve automatically translated that into an implementation or into a project or strategy. But for me, I think I would like to make it more known to other students out there that I am accessible, we are here, just come forward, and I think maybe the podcast is one way of doing that, to let those students know that it’s just an email away. And I think also breaking those power dynamics, those barriers, because like, you know, I also have one child, I didn’t say child, a youth who graduated out of university, and now my daughter is in final year, and even such things as sending an email to a prof where there’s that nervousness. “How do I write this?” or “should I”? So I really would like to just break down some of those barriers and just say, just send me an email “hi, Rona, such and such is the case”. Those are the barriers that we need to break down. And that’s also the advantage of this office, where it’s not a complaints office, so that we don’t have to think “well, okay, I’m not sure that I want to make this into a complaint”. Sometimes it can just be like something happened to you, and it didn’t feel okay, you know, “can I come and talk to you about it?” And I’ve had those instances where students and staff have just said “hey, you know, it just didn’t sit well, I don’t know what it is, it just didn’t feel okay that this person said this to me”. And then I would say “sure, let’s just talk about it” because I can relate to it, you know. That’s what I also want staff and students to know. It’s just about that, it’s just about sometimes you just need a person to talk to, you know. Or to sit with, not even talk to, just to sit across the space and just have a cup of tea, because you just had a really sucky day.
Most of the students who reached out, for example, that’s how we started the Anti-racism Awareness Week, even the push for the gender-neutral toilets. I’m getting involved with our Dito community and having Pink Week on campus, art exhibition events, so it’s just really by saying “hey, how can I help”, or “can you help me with this”?
Nanette Ashby
Awesome, okay. One of the things that we ask everybody is: What are you excited about in your field of research, and what are you still curious about within it?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
So as an action researcher, I’m excited that, more and more, we are seeing the benefit of praxy. We are seeing the benefit of marrying theory with practice, because it’s always been something that I’ve pushed for. So, for example, I partner with the Department of Gender Studies, so there’s a course Diversity and Gender, where students have to do, they have to write a paper or policy, and I basically said for the past two years “hey, let them have a chat with me”. Because then they can get a pulse in terms of what’s happening, some of the issues, and then they write their policy based on something that’s current, something that’s affecting the university, something that’s coming up. And then that policy paper is not just a paper that they get graded on, but it’s one that’s given to me, and that shapes the policy that we want to create, you know? And that’s one example of how you can have very strong theory, grounded in practice, and working in a very circular manner. So, the issues fed the theory, fed the paper, the research also feeds back into “hey, what can we do”, and how that’s shaped, and that’s really exciting for me to see in this line of work.
Now, the headroads of also DEI as an anti-oppressive practice. So, DEI as a discipline is growing, and it’s not just a topic to promote in institutions, it’s not just a module to put in inclusive leadership training. We are more and more embracing it as a theory of change that requires strategic intervention across the entire institution for it to work. It’s not just, let’s roll out an anti-bias training for staff this year, and then we can say “okay, yes, we did DEI work”, you know? So, it’s recognizing that, and I’m proud that we have an executive board that recognizes that, and place that faith and trust in me…do my job, because I know my work, and I do it well, and sometimes I think I would like that more, because that’s also… because it’s a new field, a lot of persons to whom it is new, don’t realize there are those of us who has been doing this work for a long time. So, I would just basically say: trust us a little bit, that we know what we’re doing, and I understand the need to question and clarify, and that’s okay. Sometimes in other disciplines, do we take the liberty to continually question, you know? And that, for me, I think decreases the validation of some persons in this role. A lot of people don’t realize that, by proxy, that’s what you’re doing. You are questioning a person’s ability to do their job. Just stop for a second and think, would you do the same if it was another field?
Nanette Ashby
And what are you still curious about?
Rona Jualla van Oudenhoven
I would just like to say everything, and we can end it there, because I think curiosity is the key. The moment we stop being curious, we die. One of the main philosophies of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion work is premised on humble inquiry and respectful listening, and those two concepts really are premised on being curious. So, curious not for the sake of, like “I’m just curious to know what you’re doing”, but curious as to the “hey, why is this happening? Why are we behaving in this manner from a very social scientist point of view? Why are we responding in this way?” So, also curious in the sense of being self-reflective. Yeah, so curious about everything.
Nanette Ashby
Great answer. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time. It was a pleasure talking to you.
You can find more information and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at raffia-magazine.com, and please let us know what you think over on Instagram at raffia_magazine. If you like this podcast, why don’t you leave us a lovely review on Spotify? Thanks so much for listening and all your support for the podcast. I’ll catch you in the next episode. Bye!
Raffia 