by Nanette Ashby
In this episode we are focusing on the work of Catcalls of Nimma who highlight and fight street harassment. I’m joined by the founders Judith Holzmann and Roos van den Oever to dive deeper into their process, from collecting the stories to putting chalk to the pavement. We examined the issue of harassment in public spaces from all angles, starting with the question, what is catcalling? And what can we do about it? We discussed what effects catcalling has on the individual but also on society as a whole. Is it a question of power? How can we reclaim the streets after experiencing sexual harassment? I wanted to find out how we can support each other better during or afterwards encountering catcalls. Through showcasing Catcalls of Nimma, we hope to inspire you to join the chalkback movement. Street harassment is a global feminist issue.
Please let us know your thoughts over on our instagram page @raffia_magazine // https://www.instagram.com/raffia_magazine/
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You can find the Heksennacht organized anually by Catcalls of Nimma here: https://www.nijmeegseheksennacht.nl/
Check out their work on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/catcallsofnimma/
Join the Chalkback movement or find your towns group here: https://www.chalkback.org/
Episode Transcript:
Judith Holzmann
Women should feel just as powerful as men when they walk down the street and this is not the case of we continue with catcalling.
Nanette Ashby
Welcome to the Gender and Diversity podcast Culturally Curious where arts and culture have never been more titillating with me your host Nanette Ashby. In this episode, we are focusing on the work of Catcalls of Nimma who highlight and fight street harassment. I’m joined by the founders Judith Holzmann and Roos van den Oever to dive deeper into their process, from collecting the stories to putting chalk to the pavement. We examined the issue of harassment in public spaces from all angles, starting with the question, what is catcalling? And what can we do about it? We discussed what effects catcalling has on the individual but also on society as a whole. Is it a question of power? How can we reclaim the streets after experiencing sexual harassment? I wanted to find out how we can support each other better during or afterwards encountering catcalls. Through showcasing Catcalls of Nimma, we hope to inspire you to join the chalkback movement. Street harassment is a global feminist issue. All information and links mentioned during this episode plus a transcript of our conversation are in the show notes over on our website raffia-magazine.com. Please let us know your thoughts over on our Instagram page which is @raffia_magazine. If you enjoyed the podcast please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. Let’s put our boots on the ground, get out the chalks and take back our streets.
Hello everyone, I am here with Catcalls of Nimma and Lexi from Raffia. And today we’re going to talk about catcalling in general and the awesome initiative Judith and Roos are doing.
Could you two introduce yourselves, please?
Judith Holzmann
I could start, I’m Judith. I’m 24 years old. I currently live in Utrecht, I’ve done a bachelor’s in communication sciences and then a master in gender studies. And I’m currently working at BNNVARA.
Roos van den Oever
And I’m Roos. I’m studying public administration in Nijmegen at the Radboud University and I’m 23 years old.
Nanette Ashby
Awesome. How did Catcalls of Nimma actually start and what, what is it about?
Judith Holzmann
We’re were just really done with all the catcalling in Nijmegen. And then we decided to start Catcalls of Nimma because we find out about the chalkback organization. That’s a worldwide organization. And we decided to join the movement.
Roos van den Oever
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we decided to join chalkback organization. I think currently it’s active in like 150 cities, if I’m correct, and 50 countries, which is really cool. We both had some sort of feeling like now it’s enough. You know, you walk over the streets and down the streets and people yell stuff, you experience stuff, when you go out there comes a certain point where you’re like, okay, now I’m done with it, and I’m just gonna do something about it. And that’s both why we wanted to found Catcalls of Nimma.
Nanette Ashby
Before we go any further. Could you quickly explain, you’ve already mentioned it just now, but what does catcalling actually mean?
Judith Holzmann
Catcalling, it’s like a form of harassment, mostly sexual harassment, and it can consist of different things like unwanted comments, provocative gestures, honking, whistling, exposure, stalking, touching, and it mostly happens by strangers in public areas, like, of course, the street, or in public transport, for example, or a mall.
Nanette Ashby
Okay. And could you explain to us what you do? What’s your process? Because from what I have seen, you then collect experiences from other people or other people send you their experiences? What do you then do with them? What is the action that you then take to fight the street harassment.
Roos van den Oever
People can send us their experiences, and then we collect them, like I said, and we go out to chalk, we take our chalk, and we go to the location where the street harassment took place. And then we chalk a quote, or what happens there at the street, and then we take a picture. And most of times, we posted on our Instagram accounts together with the context. So, the message that was sent to us, there’s more context than only the quote that we chalk. And when we post on Instagram to raise awareness about what is street harassment, and how can you see that this is street harassment. So, the importance of the context along with the quotes.
Nanette Ashby
I personally really liked the idea that you go back to the place where it actually took place, creating not a memorial, but creating a visual representation of the actions that took place because a lot of the times people may think, Oh, it doesn’t happen in my area, or it doesn’t happen where I live and actually coming across these kinds of witnesses is a very nice idea. I think that’s really cool.
Judith Holzmann
Exactly. And it’s also a moment for us to talk with people. Of course, we chalk down the street and we want to take a picture but it’s also a moment for us to start a conversation, why are we here? Why is it still necessary that we stand here, fighting street harassment? And I think that’s also a very valuable part of the work that we do that you just literally start a conversation. And of course, you also start a conversation online.
Nanette Ashby
So if you go out on the street, and you’re busy chalking, what kind of reactions do you usually get from people who pass by?
Roos van den Oever
There are people that say, why are you writing this, you can’t write these words, but other people immediately know what we’re doing, because they read street harassment, because we always write that underneath it, then in Dutch, it really depends on people, I think, because some people think it’s not a place to write it in the streets like street harassment.
Judith Holzmann
In general, we experience quite a lot of positive comments. Some, of course, find it ugly, to write it down on the street, or whatsoever. But of course, it’s chalk. Like after a few days, it’s always gone, or with one rain, rainy day, and of course, we live in Holland so that’s most of the time. We believe it’s an ugly thing that this still happens. So we still chalk it down. And luckily, we also have a lot of wonderful conversations. But sometimes there’s like older women that just walk past and they’re just so glad, like, oh, it still happens. And it really needs to be fought against, you know, or some men that didn’t really, really realize that it still happens. Because they of course, for example, don’t catcall themselves and they don’t speak about it with their female friends. And they just don’t see the problem because they don’t experience it themselves. That’s what I really like, like that, some people you see that they, their eyes are opened. I think that’s a very valuable thing.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah, you’re right, because if you don’t know, and if you don’t experience it, you might be naive to believe, Oh, because it’s not happening to me, it’s not happening at all anymore.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah. But of course, like street harassment also happens with men. We also get some subscriptions from men. Most of the times women are the ones that are being catcalled.
Nanette Ashby
How does it make you guys feel hearing all these stories and being witnesses, of these accounts of street harassment? Does that have an effect on how you feel walking down the street? Or how you react when you see or hear people being harassed? Has it changed your feeling?
Roos van den Oever
Of course, all the stories that you hear are stories that make you aware of what is happening, at same time that it gives more kind of power? Because you know that you’re not alone in this?
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, exactly. It’s also we do this also with another team member, Yana, we’re with the three of us. And it’s really nice that sometimes, if we get a submission that that affects you emotionally, that you can share it with some people privately. So that’s really nice. And I think it’s also what we all experience is that it’s very, I don’t know, no words in English, but it’s just very, it’s a good feeling to know that you can do something for some people, you know, some women or men, of course, are very glad that they can share their experience so that they find a way to say in a safe way that this thing that happened was not okay. Because in the moment itself, it can be very difficult to point it out. Because sometimes you are met with aggression. People are very happy that they can share their experience. And we go down straight that we actively say, Okay, this happened, this is not okay it should stop, but in a safe way. So I think it’s also a very good feeling.
Nanette Ashby
I was wondering, is there a way you would recommend people react if they see other people being catcalled? Or if you’re being catcalled yourself? I know, there are a few ways you can react that you don’t really have control over. But is there something you could already you know, have in your back pocket to say or that you can feel a little bit more prepared, how to react not that you then actually have to react like that in the moment, but sometimes it’s good to know like, Okay, if this happens, I can react like this. Do you have any recommendations?
Roos van den Oever
Yes, I think the most important thing to keep in mind in a situation like this is that however you react to it, that it’s fine. It’s really hard to step in, in a situation or if you’re getting catcalled yourself. So I think that is the most important thing to keep in mind. Of course, there are ways to help someone that is being catcalled, you can say something about it, you can ask others to help you say something about it, but you can also approach the person that is being catcalled. Afterwards to say like, okay to recognize what happened, that is not okay. And do you need help? But of course, your own safety is the most important.
Judith Holzmann
Like if you see someone being catcalled and only asking the person like, Hi, are you okay, afterwards, that is so important because it makes the person feel less alone. Nobody asks you whether you are okay. It gives you the feeling that it’s like normal behavior, some sort and you are alone in feeling that it’s not normal behavior. So think it’s very valuable only just to say hi, I saw what happened. How are you, can I do something for you? That’s just yeah, very important.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah, definitely. Thank you. How are people usually affected by catcalling when it happens? I personally haven’t experienced much catcalling myself, so I don’t I don’t know what it’s like so maybe explain for people who haven’t been catcalled. The short term and maybe long term effects of that.
Roos van den Oever
What we see in the stories that people send us, they say like, okay, it made me feel really gross or really bad.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, I think that also relates with the to the victim blaming, of course, like you asked for it whatsoever, like, Oh, you shouldn’t have walked in a short dress. In the long term, it also causes some sort of fear, because often, it’s not just one comment, it’s a whole bunch of experiences that just keeps growing and growing, it just gives you some sort of feeling of fears, you know, not only when you walk down the street, but also when you’re in a bar or whatsoever, or certain places where you’ve been catcalled before, what we also see is that people find it just very scary. And that’s also why in the moment that you are catcalled, it can be very scary to say something back, and we are a safe way to say something back. If I speak for myself, what I used to do before this account, change my own behavior, you know. If I had walked down the street, and there was something that happened, I would just avoid that certain street next time. And that’s something that I was fed up with.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah, that’s very true. And I think that’s also a great thing you’re doing with the project is you’re reclaiming that space, you’re reclaiming the streets that people walked on, or the places where it happened, instead of, as you said, feeling like you can’t go there anymore. So I think that’s really great. I personally, I’m a sex educator. So something that has been newly introduced now into sex ed is talking about consent, because that’s not actually something that is in the base, sex ed curriculum. Something I learned is you can start teaching children consent already in primary school. So it doesn’t even have to do with sex, but just Oh, I don’t want to play with that and that person? Or is it okay, if I touch you? Or if I hug you? So what do you think needs to be done in that respect in sex education or generally in education to change the trajectory of street harassment? Is there anything that really would have an impact if that would be added?
Judith Holzmann
I think personally, what we see now is, of course, sort of people cat collars have a thought, like, oh, nice boobs, or whatsoever, and they immediately scream it or shout it to that person. But I think there should be a step before, the catcaller should ask himself like, Okay, do I think that this person that I want to shout this to would like it? And if the answer’s no, then just don’t say it, we don’t ask for it. You don’t have to scream stuff about my body to me when I just walked down the street.
Roos van den Oever
Yeah, I think that reflection is a really important part.
Nanette Ashby
It has a correlation with power, I guess, because the person who then catcalls feels confident enough to do that. What I was wondering is, is street harassment also a sort of normalized assertion of power of the mostly male part of society over the female side of society.
Judith Holzmann
If I speak for myself, it feels like that person appropriates my body to himself, that he has the power to do to me, whatever he wants to say about me, whatever he wants, and that feels very uncomfortable. Like if we really see men and women as equal parts, also female bodies, because of course, this also relates to the discourse that we have about female bodies, then that person would not say something like this. Funny enough, we had a campaign or like more documentary for BNNVARA that we just released, it was called Sisterhood. And it was about, of course, female femininity. And as for sort of promo, we took a video of men sitting and saying stuff that women usually say, like, oh, I walked down the street, and I felt unsafe. And I was scared that that woman was going to say something about me and just seeing it coming out of their mouth, like feeling that it’s strange also, of course, represents how normalized it is for women to feel like that, even though it shouldn’t be.
Nanette Ashby
Yeah like it’s ingrained in how city works, how society works. And I think that’s was really cool idea from you to swap that around.
Judith Holzmann
It was not my idea. But I really liked the idea though,
Nanette Ashby
That was really a good way of showing it because a lot of times, if you want to change people’s minds about something, or you want to educate people about a situation of a minority that they might not belong to, or of an experience they don’t personally have. I think that was a really great way of showing it without using facts, but using emotions.
Judith Holzmann
If you just reverse it, then you can see where the power usually is. And women should feel just as powerful as men when they walk down the street. And this is not the case of we continue with catcalling.
Roos van den Oever
It’s considered a women’s issue to be arrest. A lot of men in this case, don’t even know that it’s going on until you explain about it and they pay attention to it. A lot of men don’t even know that it’s this big, it’s happening so much. And I think that also shows how the power lies with the men in this case, because it’s really a privilege to not think about this, not to see well, it’s a daily struggle for me for example.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, and I think what’s also interesting to think about is the question, why do men catcall? What is their motivation because honestly, I don’t believe that if you scream to a woman Oh, nice tits. Let’s fuck here in the corner, that any woman’s gonna go to the corner with you. I think like, if you really want to flirt, then you should try something else. So I feel like why do they scream stuff like that. And I think it also could perhaps be explained somewhat by some sort of toxic masculinity, that we always see men, as that they should be dominant to be male or something, which is of course very strange if you think about it. Maybe that’s also where catcalling also sometimes plays a part, that they feel very tough, very masculine, if they feel that they can scream certain things to women.
Alexia Coville
I actually read a study about this, not too long ago. That interviewed, I think it was about a thousand men, and on their behaviors of catcalling and I think it was about one third of the men said they would engage in catcalling behavior. Most of them, gave as reasons that it is their way to flirt and that they think that it’s like a nice compliment. I think that that’s also where that education part that Nannette was talking about earlier comes in, where it really needs to be discussed how to treat people and how people are to be treated respectfully, even though if you want to make a compliment that because somebody looks nice, doing that in a safe and like kind way and in an appropriate moment. And I think that’s really important to include in kids education.
Roos van den Oever
We also had conversations about this with men in the streets when we were chalking. And they said, like, Okay, I know now that is not considered a compliment or flirting, but that is how I intended it. But the intention is not received in the same way.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, exactly. Like flirting is about fun for both parties, you know. I think that’s also what we also say that like with our account, of course, there should be room for flirting. Flirting is a lot of fun, but it should just not be catcalling. And we also have some examples like Okay, what can you say? Instead of nice tits, a comment that makes women feel objectified. Just say Oh, nice smile. Oh, you look happy today, how are you? Or that just gives a whole different message than just saying something about a body in a sexual manner.
Roos van den Oever
When the other person says, Okay, no, I’m not interested or something like that. And know that you should stop at that point.
Nanette Ashby
That’s not an opportunity of Okay, convince me. I said no, but you know, maybe if you yell at me louder, I’ll change my mind.
Judith Holzmann
That’s also what we see in the submissions that we get that there sometimes can be like a turning point. Sometimes men could be very flirtatious. Oh you look so nice and nice, whatever. Or should we go on a date? And then if a woman tells him no, like, no, I’m not interested, have a nice day, bye that they turned to aggression. Fuck you whore was, you know that they scream. I think that’s also something that a lot of people feel like okay, now it can be flirtatious, but it could switch at any moment. And then it turns scary. And that’s also why I feel unsafe if the first comment is made, because you know that it could transform in a more aggressive situation.
Roos van den Oever
Well, I experienced it myself. When I walk around and and I’m with my girlfriend, people comment on it, shouts things at you. And it doesn’t make you feel safe to walk around hand in hand with your partner. This is also a very big part of street harassment in the LGBTQ plus community as well. And not only in that community, but we also received stories about racism within the street harassment. So it’s, of course, much more than the binary thing that we already talked about, or what’s the mainstream ideas of street harassment.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, exactly. We also had some submissions from men so they can also send it to us because sometimes people feel like we are an account for only women and very angry at all men, which is definitely not the case. Because luckily, there are a lot of nice men. But there are just some men that aren’t. No, of course everybody can share their experience, if, with street harassment if they felt unsafe. And yeah well, we also see as Rose explained like people from the LGBTQ+ community that just show there love for example on the street or in a bar that they still are being sexualized, also are met with aggression. So that’s also a very big part yeah.
Alexia Coville
Yeah, I was thinking how this whole issue of catcalling and like safety in the public space, probably relates a lot to general societal structures where women are often, or like, when cities were built women were not planned into the city and that’s why already it’s kind of an environment in which women and especially also minorites of all kind of intersections will find themselves in a space that is not made for them. And the catcalling kind of enhances this specific feeling of like being an other and being like this alien in the city. I think it also continues this misogyny that’s happening. That’s why I was just wondering if you get like a lot more messages from like lesbian couples, for example, rather than gay men. Obviously, the harassment for gay men is a different kind, but the intersection of being a woman and an LGBT person might be a very sensitive one.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah, that’s very interesting that you say that as well. I don’t know if we can say that directly. Because I don’t know. That’s also a thing of social media, of course, your algorithm. And I don’t know if everyone knows how to find us or feels comfortable to speak about it.
Roos van den Oever
We have more female followers than male followers, which I think might give like a bias idea of how often this happens to men and women from the LGBTQ community. Everybody can send it into us, we will just go chalk it down.
Nanette Ashby
So let’s say someone is listening from not Nijmegen, not the Netherlands and wants to start a project like this in their own country. How is it in terms of resources and how and where do you get funding? How does it work? Like if someone wants to take action? What are your tips?
Roos van den Oever
We’re part of a bigger organization, the chalkback. Worldwide, there are a lot of cities that have the GAO [?], if you want to be part of the chalkback community and start a catcalls of account in your own city, then you can apply to the chalkback organization and they have a very supportive group, you have a lot of freedom within your own account. So we also do collaborations with for example, Amnesty, Let’s talk about yes Nijmegen, we did a collaboration with about consents, you have a lot of freedom in a way that you approach street harassment. And for resources, we do all of it ourselves. There is a small fund that we can access, but it’s only a small fund. So it’s all voluntary.
Judith Holzmann
If you wanted to do something like this, the first step is to Okay, is there already Nijmegen, not a Nijmegen, because we are Nijmegen, but is there already like a catcalls of and then a city accounts. Because if there is I would just suggest send the person a DM and just find your allies because it’s a lot better to do it together than alone. And the only thing you have to do yes, or Rose already told you, to send like a photo with your face to chalkback organization that they know that you are legit with the account that you are trying to start. And then you can just fill it in yourself and give it shape the way that you want to. It doesn’t actually like financially speaking, it’s we don’t have to pay anything except for the chalk. And we do that ourselves. So we just buy a lot of chalk. And then we can use for a couple of months. So that’s financially speaking. But the biggest investment that we make is time because of course, if you get in [unintelligible] we really want to take the time to answer correctly. And also the post that we make, you need to make the like the all the squares and stuff and find a good text for underneath it. So there’s a lot of work thinking about that. And of course, the collaborations that, I think it’s mostly a time that is our investment. But we still do it with a lot of love and a lot of fun and a lot of feeling that it’s really important.
Roos van den Oever
But of course, it’s also the way that we approach it, other accounts don’t chalk that much or they do even more.
Nanette Ashby
So how often do you go out in a week to do this?
Roos van den Oever
Well, we planned it very nicely, I think, because we go out to chalk one time, and then we chalk more stories at the same time. Because it takes up a lot of time. I think we spent a whole day chalking because we also want to talk to people. And of course, we also want to choose a day that there are people in the street to talk to so we don’t go out to chalk on a Monday because everyone is at work, then for example, we plan it like smartly, I think myself.
Judith Holzmann
Once or twice a month, we go chalk a whole Saturday. And luckily the weather’s getting better. So that’s very nice. So we’ve been frozen to death last winter.
Nanette Ashby
So wrapping up, what can the listeners do? How can we support your initiative apart from going out and actually chalking? What, what can people do? Where can we find you?
Judith Holzmann
Well, you can always slide in our DM spread the word, you know, make this not like as a marketing thing or whatsoever? No, not at all, the more like spread the words in get this account known so that people know where they can go to with their experiences that maybe just start a conversation within your own group of friends. For example, if men are listening, maybe ask your male friends like how do you think about it? Because I think street harassment is a topic that a lot of female friends talk about, but not so many male friends. So also start a conversation in your own social environments.
Nanette Ashby
Okay. And last question that we ask everybody. So what are you still curious about that you’ve come across during your work, what surprises you? What are you wondering about?
Judith Holzmann
I think what we are maybe both I don’t know how you feel about it and others but quite surprised how it works out. And we’ve done a lot of cool collaborations with for example, the Amnesty campaign. We’ve talked to so many people, we got so much positive feedback, and we already chalked so many things. So I think that really surprised me in a positive way that it really grows and it really feels like we are doing something important and it’s really nice.
Roos van den Oever
Yeah, exactly Judith, like when we started, it was just like so muddy of, okay, we need to do something about this because I feel like we need to do it and then grew this big and I could have never imagined that people would pick it up like this. So I think that’s really nice. And that’s also something that surprised me. And I’m really curious to find out how far we will grow and how things will change.
Nanette Ashby
Thank you so much for taking the time and all the information to your Instagram account and also to the chalkback innitiative in general will be in the description of this podcast, so if you want to go explore you can. And thank you so much for taking the time, and I can’t wait to see your chalk in the streets of Nijmegen. I’m really gonna keep an eye out. Thank you so much.
Roos van den Oever
Well thank you as well.
Judith Holzmann
Yeah thank you for inviting us. Really nice.
Nanette Ashby
You can find more information and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at raffia-magazine.com. And please let us know what you think over on Instagram @raffia_magazine. If you liked this podcast, why don’t you leave us a review on Spotify. Thanks so much for listening and all the support for the podcast. Catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Raffia 